4 ms·

You are assuming bad faith here. The project is marketed as unblockable, etc and yet we both conclude it is blockable from the start with existing network mana

You are assuming bad faith here. The project is marketed as unblockable, etc and yet we both conclude it is blockable from the start with existing network management tools that are deployed in places like Iran and China. I was asking a genuine question of use case.

rektide 5y ago
> and yet we both conclude it is blockable Extremely polarizing language for something that is way more a scale to me, and I don't agree that this technology is blockable. I already elaborated some scenarios where hosting can respawn easily, with no coupling to any particular infrastructure. That to me is pretty unblockable. There's other resilliencies offered here. The story keeps getting better, given all the resilience features at Bittorrent's core: webtorrent clients could connect to multiple trackers just fine. Since it's tracker based, there's no need for any specific host to stay online. We can all just use the existing tracker network. Even if the entire tracker network is taken down- something that has never happened to bittorrent & which is beyond imagining to me- bittorrent still has a peer exchange network & allows for peers to manually be added. Whence peer exchange can kick in & keep resilliency going. I'm sorry but I have no agreemenet whatsoever with you on blockability. This has multiple vast layers of resillience that are excellent, which have never seen active threat against them. What would make you happy? Do we need a system able to resist long term nuclear winter to be unblockable? What's the goal here? You've still been extremely unclear what your technical complaints actually are, extremely specious, & aggressive. And now you are also putting words in my mouth. > You are assuming bad faith here. I think I've done quite well working around doing that, & worked hard to find something to discuss. In contrast, you have yet to specify a specific technical case at all, to explain what issue you actually have or what you think the problem or scenario you are imagining is. And you use aggressive position & hard words to double down on your argumentless snub, which to me reads like a bad faith follow-up, one I challenge you to do better on. I mostly think you don't know the tech. Which is fine. Bittorrent is fairly complex & has a lot of layers to it. There aren't great primers to get filled in on it. Bittorrent is a great basis, one that countless millions have been spent trying to block & take down & combat, but the system has been extremely resillient. Magnet links "just work", fantastically well, and are super easy to share, to get started, over any medium one wants. The underpinnning distributed P2P technologies are broadly capable of taking over from there. I don't think your short, undetailed, savage doubt is contributive or accurate: you should better define your issues if you are going to throw such a hard heavy opinion down against great tech.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't argue in the flamewar style on HN. We want curious conversation here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - rektide 5y ago
    > Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. I very much think resolving this conversation is of the utmost importance, is absolutely core to the topic at hand. There should at least be some idea of what the criticism here is. I would really like to see that. I have not at all been perfect. But I have tried to surface technics, to get to the heart of the technical matters at hand. To illuminate & increase the information here, in the core topics at hand. I respect your intervention here dang & agree this is going bad. And I could improve. But I think I am very very very narrowly not-passing here, and this seems like an essential defense to me. I've been wanting very badly to get to the real topic, to affirm & help us to work with the next HN rule after "Eschew flamebait": > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.
vgb2k18 5y ago
Block-resistant and censorship-resistant are terminology I've seen used in other projects. I agree that ublockable and uncensorable are hard phrases to sell here, they kind of immediately beg to be challenged.

rektide 5y ago

> and yet we both conclude it is blockable Extremely polarizing language for something that is way more a scale to me, and I don't agree that this technology is blockable. I already elaborated some scenarios where hosting can respawn easily, with no coupling to any particular infrastructure. That to me is pretty unblockable. There's other resilliencies offered here. The story keeps getting better, given all the resilience features at Bittorrent's core: webtorrent clients could connect to multiple trackers just fine. Since it's tracker based, there's no need for any specific host to stay online. We can all just use the existing tracker network. Even if the entire tracker network is taken down- something that has never happened to bittorrent & which is beyond imagining to me- bittorrent still has a peer exchange network & allows for peers to manually be added. Whence peer exchange can kick in & keep resilliency going. I'm sorry but I have no agreemenet whatsoever with you on blockability. This has multiple vast layers of resillience that are excellent, which have never seen active threat against them. What would make you happy? Do we need a system able to resist long term nuclear winter to be unblockable? What's the goal here? You've still been extremely unclear what your technical complaints actually are, extremely specious, & aggressive. And now you are also putting words in my mouth. > You are assuming bad faith here. I think I've done quite well working around doing that, & worked hard to find something to discuss. In contrast, you have yet to specify a specific technical case at all, to explain what issue you actually have or what you think the problem or scenario you are imagining is. And you use aggressive position & hard words to double down on your argumentless snub, which to me reads like a bad faith follow-up, one I challenge you to do better on. I mostly think you don't know the tech. Which is fine. Bittorrent is fairly complex & has a lot of layers to it. There aren't great primers to get filled in on it. Bittorrent is a great basis, one that countless millions have been spent trying to block & take down & combat, but the system has been extremely resillient. Magnet links "just work", fantastically well, and are super easy to share, to get started, over any medium one wants. The underpinnning distributed P2P technologies are broadly capable of taking over from there. I don't think your short, undetailed, savage doubt is contributive or accurate: you should better define your issues if you are going to throw such a hard heavy opinion down against great tech.

dang 5y ago
Please don't argue in the flamewar style on HN. We want curious conversation here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rektide 5y ago
  > Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. I very much think resolving this conversation is of the utmost importance, is absolutely core to the topic at hand. There should at least be some idea of what the criticism here is. I would really like to see that. I have not at all been perfect. But I have tried to surface technics, to get to the heart of the technical matters at hand. To illuminate & increase the information here, in the core topics at hand. I respect your intervention here dang & agree this is going bad. And I could improve. But I think I am very very very narrowly not-passing here, and this seems like an essential defense to me. I've been wanting very badly to get to the real topic, to affirm & help us to work with the next HN rule after "Eschew flamebait": > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

vgb2k18 5y ago

Block-resistant and censorship-resistant are terminology I've seen used in other projects. I agree that ublockable and uncensorable are hard phrases to sell here, they kind of immediately beg to be challenged.