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Enticing, but a part of me is still very hesitant to get in bed with Oracle. They've gained a reputation of trying to lock customers in so that their legal depa

Enticing, but a part of me is still very hesitant to get in bed with Oracle. They've gained a reputation of trying to lock customers in so that their legal department can "innovate" more ways of squeezing money out of them. The common joke remains that Oracle is actually just two law-firms in a software-company trenchcoat. Until this reputation changes, any offer they present smells suspiciously like a baited hook.

_jal 5y ago
Never invite a vampire into your home is timeless advice.
smarx007 5y ago
Had IBM Cloud account for a while. At some point, they started to attach a notice to a monthly $0 bill along the lines: if you card gets declined, we will fine you $25 and if you don't pay in 7 days, we will fine you further $50. Easiest account termination decision I have ever had. I guess the first email from Oracle "we are making routine changes to the T&Cs and our privacy policy" will be the end of my account.
- thriftwy 5y ago
  Is this even legal? In most jurisdictions, you have to be a government to fine anybody. Sending frivolous charges may be considered fraud and also lead to chargebacks.
  - evandwight 5y ago
    It's not a government fine. It's just an agreement in the contract specifying a payment is due if your card declines.
    - thriftwy 5y ago
      I'm not sure that is legal either. You can charge for some product or service but, unless you are a licensed bank, you can't lend out money and charge for overdraft, which is basically something they're doing here. And even a bank can only do it against accounts open in that bank.
      - evandwight 5y ago
        You may be right. It looks like some states have specific rules for credit cards. For example, in some states businesses can't charge credit card processing fees. However, many businesses charge late payment fees. https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/can-merchant-charge-fee-declined-credit-card/ https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/can-merchant-ch...
      - jfrunyon 5y ago
        There's no lending of money involved? If your card gets declined, they add a fee to your bill. You can either choose to not pay it (and stop receiving any services from that company, and possibly have your account sent to collections or even be sued since you agreed to pay something and then didn't pay it), or you can pay it.
        worik 5y ago
        IANAL But AFAIK in civilised jurisdictions if I offer a service for money, and you offer money, I must offer the service. If I make up charges for you and you refuse to pay, I can cease offering the service (to everybody) but I cannot just cut you out because you will not pay the out of contract charge. These laws are to protect people who belong to groups that commonly get discriminated against.
        niij 5y ago
        > IANAL That much is clear. Charging a fee for providing bad payment info is legal. See "bounced check" fees.
        itsabigworld 5y ago
        GP referred to "civilised jurisdictions", by which most of us snarkily mean "outside the US". Since you refer to cheques, I presume you're in the US. If that is correct, then it's kind of beside the point whether or not it's legal there. In any case, their point is valid. This would certainly not be legal in my jurisdiction. The company can write it in the contract all they want, but the law on collecting payments trumps that and is the only thing that matters. You wouldn't have to pay. æøå Edit to add: "Lov om inkassovirksomhet" § 17, which according to § 3 can't be voided by agreement. Short version is that you can't demand fees covered unless the client fails to pay within the 14 day deadline of the payment reminder.
  - smarx007 5y ago
    In Europe, we don't use chargebacks in most cases. Unless the payment was truly fraudulent (i.e. you cannot get hold of someone who issued the payment or they are not in business of doing things they charged for), you have to use proper legal means of settling the dispute. As you may imagine, the life is too short for things of such kind, especially with multi-billion corps. Anyway, dug up the email: Please note that all payments are due in full on the monthly anniversary date. Failure to remit payment for services on the monthly anniversary date will result in a $20 late fee. If full payment has not been received within five (5) consecutive days, including the anniversary date, termination of public access to Customer services and a $50 reconnect fee will be incurred. Failure to remit payment for services within seven (7) consecutive days, including the anniversary date, shall result in termination of access to the service network and all services shall be reclaimed. And the T&Cs link: https://www.ibm.com/support/customer/csol/terms?id=Z126-6304&cc=us&lc=en#detail-document https://www.ibm.com/support/customer/csol/terms?id=Z126-6304... To my pleasant surprise, the T&Cs are quite a readable document. As you see, they call them fees, not fines. The https://www.ibm.com/cloud/pricing https://www.ibm.com/cloud/pricing page also says they offer loans, leasing, and other kinds of financing.
    - bserge 5y ago
      You don't have to use "proper legal means". Which are rigged against you anyway. Use secondary bank accounts and cards. IBM loses a thousand yoyos, no one even farts. You do, it's a major loss. Unless you're rich and somewhat of an idiot, of course. It's really hard to get rich playing by the rules.
    - thriftwy 5y ago
      I always thought that chargeback was the rule of Visa and MasterCard networks, so if you used that for the transaction, you are eligible for it. I wonder what's the extent of my confusion here. It is also a proper legal procedure.
      - smarx007 5y ago
        You are right, even the consumer protection agency says as much: https://www.hallakonsument.se/en/articles/card-complaints/ https://www.hallakonsument.se/en/articles/card-complaints/ However, I think now I have a better idea why: debit cards have a major share in Europe and the page above says "When you pay with a debit card, you have no right by law to turn to the bank to demand a refund." But thanks for a reminder, and I will think about using a credit card for online purchases in some cases rather than a debit.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    Sure, but Oracle can probably send it to collections and at the very least waste your time getting things fixed at the credit reporting agencies. At most, they'll sell your "debt" to one of those lowlife collections agencies that keeps calling until they get through to family members and then makes veiled threats. It's not legal, but with an unlimited supply of overseas "agents" that isn't really their problem, and it most certainly isn't Oracle's problem.
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    If someone has contractually agreed to pay a certain amount if an event happens, and that event happens, then yes, that person has to pay that amount if that event happens.
    - thriftwy 5y ago
      It does not work that way when selling services or goods to a person. In most jurisdictions, anyway. It is highly regulated and it should be so. You can only charge for things that you have delivered and only the ones which were requested/consumed.
      - jfrunyon 5y ago
        You can repeat that as many times as you want but it won't make it any more relevant.
    - itsabigworld 5y ago
      I can't speak for other jurisdictions, but Norwegian law explicitly says that you can't demand payment in that case, even if you have a contract that says otherwise. æøå
      - jfrunyon 5y ago
        The Norwegian law you referenced appears to say you can't charge for debt collection (unless conditions are met). This has nothing to do with debt collection. In fact it has nothing to do with debt. But you know what man, go ahead, try and scam someone with an NSF or decline and see how it goes. (Disclaimer: I don't speak Norwegian or any of the other languages)
        jfrunyon 5y ago
        coo' coo', go try and scam someone with an NSF, see how it goes my man.
        itsabigworld 5y ago
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    > You can only charge for things that you have delivered and only the ones which were requested/consumed. This was requested. By you requesting a product or service which included this as its terms. Same for delivered and consumed.
    - worik 5y ago
      Not in civilised jurisdictions. Plain language and clear notification is necessary. Just "included in the terms" is not enough. But and body can ask anybody for almost anything and if it is provided then no illegality. Send money now: Acc: 1927-3938277-00 You all owe me US$100 for reading this. Pay now!
      - jfrunyon 5y ago
        It was pretty clearly plain language and clear notification. I have no intent to purchase anything from you, unlike the customers (i.e. people who have and continue to purchase) who this thread is discussing. An actual analogy would be more like "You all owe me $100 for reading this, if you want to purchase something else from me". Which is completely legal. In any jurisdiction. If you don't like it you're free to go buy from someone else.
  - alam2000 5y ago

_jal 5y ago

Never invite a vampire into your home is timeless advice.

smarx007 5y ago

Had IBM Cloud account for a while. At some point, they started to attach a notice to a monthly $0 bill along the lines: if you card gets declined, we will fine you $25 and if you don't pay in 7 days, we will fine you further $50. Easiest account termination decision I have ever had. I guess the first email from Oracle "we are making routine changes to the T&Cs and our privacy policy" will be the end of my account.

thriftwy 5y ago
Is this even legal? In most jurisdictions, you have to be a government to fine anybody. Sending frivolous charges may be considered fraud and also lead to chargebacks.
- evandwight 5y ago
  It's not a government fine. It's just an agreement in the contract specifying a payment is due if your card declines.
  - thriftwy 5y ago
    I'm not sure that is legal either. You can charge for some product or service but, unless you are a licensed bank, you can't lend out money and charge for overdraft, which is basically something they're doing here. And even a bank can only do it against accounts open in that bank.
    - evandwight 5y ago
      You may be right. It looks like some states have specific rules for credit cards. For example, in some states businesses can't charge credit card processing fees. However, many businesses charge late payment fees. https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/can-merchant-charge-fee-declined-credit-card/ https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/can-merchant-ch...
    - jfrunyon 5y ago
      There's no lending of money involved? If your card gets declined, they add a fee to your bill. You can either choose to not pay it (and stop receiving any services from that company, and possibly have your account sent to collections or even be sued since you agreed to pay something and then didn't pay it), or you can pay it.
      - worik 5y ago
        IANAL But AFAIK in civilised jurisdictions if I offer a service for money, and you offer money, I must offer the service. If I make up charges for you and you refuse to pay, I can cease offering the service (to everybody) but I cannot just cut you out because you will not pay the out of contract charge. These laws are to protect people who belong to groups that commonly get discriminated against.
        niij 5y ago
        > IANAL That much is clear. Charging a fee for providing bad payment info is legal. See "bounced check" fees.
        itsabigworld 5y ago
        GP referred to "civilised jurisdictions", by which most of us snarkily mean "outside the US". Since you refer to cheques, I presume you're in the US. If that is correct, then it's kind of beside the point whether or not it's legal there. In any case, their point is valid. This would certainly not be legal in my jurisdiction. The company can write it in the contract all they want, but the law on collecting payments trumps that and is the only thing that matters. You wouldn't have to pay. æøå Edit to add: "Lov om inkassovirksomhet" § 17, which according to § 3 can't be voided by agreement. Short version is that you can't demand fees covered unless the client fails to pay within the 14 day deadline of the payment reminder.
- smarx007 5y ago
  In Europe, we don't use chargebacks in most cases. Unless the payment was truly fraudulent (i.e. you cannot get hold of someone who issued the payment or they are not in business of doing things they charged for), you have to use proper legal means of settling the dispute. As you may imagine, the life is too short for things of such kind, especially with multi-billion corps. Anyway, dug up the email: Please note that all payments are due in full on the monthly anniversary date. Failure to remit payment for services on the monthly anniversary date will result in a $20 late fee. If full payment has not been received within five (5) consecutive days, including the anniversary date, termination of public access to Customer services and a $50 reconnect fee will be incurred. Failure to remit payment for services within seven (7) consecutive days, including the anniversary date, shall result in termination of access to the service network and all services shall be reclaimed. And the T&Cs link: https://www.ibm.com/support/customer/csol/terms?id=Z126-6304&cc=us&lc=en#detail-document https://www.ibm.com/support/customer/csol/terms?id=Z126-6304... To my pleasant surprise, the T&Cs are quite a readable document. As you see, they call them fees, not fines. The https://www.ibm.com/cloud/pricing https://www.ibm.com/cloud/pricing page also says they offer loans, leasing, and other kinds of financing.
  - bserge 5y ago
    You don't have to use "proper legal means". Which are rigged against you anyway. Use secondary bank accounts and cards. IBM loses a thousand yoyos, no one even farts. You do, it's a major loss. Unless you're rich and somewhat of an idiot, of course. It's really hard to get rich playing by the rules.
  - thriftwy 5y ago
    I always thought that chargeback was the rule of Visa and MasterCard networks, so if you used that for the transaction, you are eligible for it. I wonder what's the extent of my confusion here. It is also a proper legal procedure.
    - smarx007 5y ago
      You are right, even the consumer protection agency says as much: https://www.hallakonsument.se/en/articles/card-complaints/ https://www.hallakonsument.se/en/articles/card-complaints/ However, I think now I have a better idea why: debit cards have a major share in Europe and the page above says "When you pay with a debit card, you have no right by law to turn to the bank to demand a refund." But thanks for a reminder, and I will think about using a credit card for online purchases in some cases rather than a debit.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Sure, but Oracle can probably send it to collections and at the very least waste your time getting things fixed at the credit reporting agencies. At most, they'll sell your "debt" to one of those lowlife collections agencies that keeps calling until they get through to family members and then makes veiled threats. It's not legal, but with an unlimited supply of overseas "agents" that isn't really their problem, and it most certainly isn't Oracle's problem.
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  If someone has contractually agreed to pay a certain amount if an event happens, and that event happens, then yes, that person has to pay that amount if that event happens.
  - thriftwy 5y ago
    It does not work that way when selling services or goods to a person. In most jurisdictions, anyway. It is highly regulated and it should be so. You can only charge for things that you have delivered and only the ones which were requested/consumed.
    - jfrunyon 5y ago
      You can repeat that as many times as you want but it won't make it any more relevant.
  - itsabigworld 5y ago
    I can't speak for other jurisdictions, but Norwegian law explicitly says that you can't demand payment in that case, even if you have a contract that says otherwise. æøå
    - jfrunyon 5y ago
      The Norwegian law you referenced appears to say you can't charge for debt collection (unless conditions are met). This has nothing to do with debt collection. In fact it has nothing to do with debt. But you know what man, go ahead, try and scam someone with an NSF or decline and see how it goes. (Disclaimer: I don't speak Norwegian or any of the other languages)
      - jfrunyon 5y ago
        coo' coo', go try and scam someone with an NSF, see how it goes my man.
      - itsabigworld 5y ago
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  > You can only charge for things that you have delivered and only the ones which were requested/consumed. This was requested. By you requesting a product or service which included this as its terms. Same for delivered and consumed.
  - worik 5y ago
    Not in civilised jurisdictions. Plain language and clear notification is necessary. Just "included in the terms" is not enough. But and body can ask anybody for almost anything and if it is provided then no illegality. Send money now: Acc: 1927-3938277-00 You all owe me US$100 for reading this. Pay now!
    - jfrunyon 5y ago
      It was pretty clearly plain language and clear notification. I have no intent to purchase anything from you, unlike the customers (i.e. people who have and continue to purchase) who this thread is discussing. An actual analogy would be more like "You all owe me $100 for reading this, if you want to purchase something else from me". Which is completely legal. In any jurisdiction. If you don't like it you're free to go buy from someone else.
- alam2000 5y ago