5 ms·

This is an obvious driver for migration: why settle for living in a poor country, if you can migrate to a country with orders of magnitude richer opportunities?

This is an obvious driver for migration: why settle for living in a poor country, if you can migrate to a country with orders of magnitude richer opportunities? I really wonder why the global migration rate is only 3%.

reidjs 5y ago
It's hard to get up and move away from everyone you know just to chase wealth and financial stability. Your relationships with people are more important than money. It's not easy to learn a new language, gain citizenship, get a job, and successfully do the thousand other things required to migrate to a new country.
- atemerev 5y ago
  I have lived in 5 different countries, with residence permits and all (Russia, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Denmark — and also a few months in the US). While it was certainly not easy, I gained a lot from this experience (new relationships and networking opportunities in particular).
- bobthechef 5y ago
  Exactly. This is one of the (many) problems with the vulgar "homo economicus" view of human beings. Culture and nationality are likewise factors. Moving to another country is difficult. You are moving to an alien culture with an alien language where you will be unfamiliar with a whole host of social realities, some of which may contradict what you believe. That's why immigrants usually create ethnic neighborhoods[0] and it is only their grandchildren onward who are fully assimilated into the adopted nation, usually facilitated through intermarriage which tends to water down ethnic ties. [0] Tangentially, it is an interesting question how long the ethnic European neighborhoods, nostalgically portrayed in movies like "The Godfather", that began to dissolve around WWII could have lasted. According to one view of what is commonly called "white flight", a major factor was the WASP ruling class' social engineering and ethnic cleansing of them out of existence by dispersing them across the suburbs which hastened their assimilation ("into what?" is itself a question worth pursuing; a WASP-constructed "identity"?). The reason this migration out of the cities coincided with the civil rights movement, according to this view, is that the Great Migration of black sharecroppers from the South was effectively an instrument of mass migration into ethnic neighborhoods. Mass migration always fragments the peoples into which the migration flows. So, given this interpretation, this was not some manifestation of racism, but of disintegrating neighborhoods (the "white guys" throwing rocks in Marquette Park were apparently Lithuanians who felt that their community was threatened by this migration). Many of these neighborhoods were also Catholic, and with falling birth rates among Protestants following the 1930 Lambeth Conference, the idea of Catholics outbreeding them was not something they cared to endure.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  By moving to far better country you gain much more than just money. Its tons of things usually, that completely redefine overall level of quality of life. Health care, social care, low crime rate, better schools for children and generally much better environment for them to grow up and have better lives (again, not in monetary sense, this comes just as consequence of the rest). It can be very stimulating. Its a huge step, too big for way too many people, but definitely worth it for many others. It looks much worse from far than actually doing the steps though, you break them down into atomic parts just like any other problem solving. I've done it twice and when looking back to those 10/15 years, it was the right choice, probably the best in my life. But its best done before starting family.
- notahacker 5y ago
  To add to which, the people who are most likely to get visas to move to much richer countries tend to be the ones that start off in their own country's upper middle class (allowing them to tick all the right educational boxes to become software developers or nurses, or at least have savings to pay people smugglers). They can still be materially a lot richer and often enjoy many other lifestyle benefits from moving overseas even if they have to drop down the status ladder and forget about owning land and having servants, but it does make the decision a bit more of a tradeoff than a salary comparison might suggest. The option of moving isn't really there for the people who are so poor there's no upside to staying in their own country.
  - golemiprague 5y ago
    That really depends on geography, if you border with a rich country also the poor people can migrate illegally just by crossing the border, that's what happening with Mexico and the US or Africa and Europe. But indeed those people don't always do so well in their new country, it just creates more problems. In general migration is not such a great solution because once too many people migrates from the same place it just creates a nation within a nation and you are setting the country for the next civil war, whether proper war or low key between all the different groups. The best way to solve the issue is within each country, China did much more to alleviate poverty for a huge number of people comparing to what migration achieved.
VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
My guess is the richer countries make it hard to migrate to them. USA is relatively easy to migrate to compared to basically anywhere in western Europe, UK, Canada, Japan, or South Korea.
- gassiss 5y ago
  I don't know about the others, but Canada is probably the easiest developed country to immigrate to. You can basically get a green card before you even land
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  Usa is harder
- atemerev 5y ago
  USA is one of the hardest countries in the world to immigrate (and still one of the most attractive).
  - Jensson 5y ago
    If you include illegal immigration then USA is probably easier than most other western nations. USA is very accepting of illegal immigrants for some reason.
    - kevinventullo 5y ago
      You know it never really occurred to me before this, but is there anything more American than working hard to skirt poorly implemented rules in order to enrich yourself and those around you? Am I talking about illegal immigrants or Uber?
      - Jensson 5y ago
        That is a good point. California is top both on tech start-ups and illegal immigrants.
    - 5y ago
vietthan 5y ago
0.03 * 7,900,000,000 = 237,000,000 . Btw, that's not a rate, just a hard count by the world Economic Forum. That's a lot of people. There's so many variables when it comes to migration that an individual has to face, a percentage that high is actually quite significant. Rising quality of life also means immigration pressure isn't as high.
beebeepka 5y ago
People with guns and boots make sure it stays low.
School-Cotton 5y ago
Because migration is difficult, unpleasant, and usually illegal.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Since when is moving to different countries illegal?
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    Without implying anything about other Western countries, and setting aside the US, I was curious how difficult it is to legally immigrate to Canada, since it's the nearest option to me, and everybody likes Canada. The following is what I found (no personal experience, just reading official sources on the internet) While in theory one can move to Canada legally, it appears to me that becoming a permanent resident would be difficult or impossible for most people in the world. There is a complicated points system that possibly a lot of HN readers could qualify for, but not most people. They do not want you if you aren't a member of the managerial class, professional, or skilled tradesperson. They also do not want you if you aren't between 18 and 35. It's not completely impossible but if you are closer to 50, there is a substantial penalty to your score. They do not want you if you have any health or mental condition that they determine will put a burden on the public system. They do not want you if you aren't fluent in English or French. They do not want you if you aren't highly educated. They do not want you if you don't have a guarantee of employment in Canada for a sufficient amount of time or a lot of money. Having a job in Canada isn't necessarily enough. They do not want you if you have a criminal record, especially any form of DWI, whether alcohol, pot, or something else. Marrying a Canadian is not an automatic pass. There are also a bunch of specialized programs with different criteria, such as for refugees, people working as caregivers, etc.
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    I said usually, not always. You need a visa to do so which developed countries only grant in limited circumstances (e.g., to educated people with job offers in high-demand fields).

reidjs 5y ago

It's hard to get up and move away from everyone you know just to chase wealth and financial stability. Your relationships with people are more important than money. It's not easy to learn a new language, gain citizenship, get a job, and successfully do the thousand other things required to migrate to a new country.

atemerev 5y ago
I have lived in 5 different countries, with residence permits and all (Russia, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Denmark — and also a few months in the US). While it was certainly not easy, I gained a lot from this experience (new relationships and networking opportunities in particular).
bobthechef 5y ago
Exactly. This is one of the (many) problems with the vulgar "homo economicus" view of human beings. Culture and nationality are likewise factors. Moving to another country is difficult. You are moving to an alien culture with an alien language where you will be unfamiliar with a whole host of social realities, some of which may contradict what you believe. That's why immigrants usually create ethnic neighborhoods[0] and it is only their grandchildren onward who are fully assimilated into the adopted nation, usually facilitated through intermarriage which tends to water down ethnic ties. [0] Tangentially, it is an interesting question how long the ethnic European neighborhoods, nostalgically portrayed in movies like "The Godfather", that began to dissolve around WWII could have lasted. According to one view of what is commonly called "white flight", a major factor was the WASP ruling class' social engineering and ethnic cleansing of them out of existence by dispersing them across the suburbs which hastened their assimilation ("into what?" is itself a question worth pursuing; a WASP-constructed "identity"?). The reason this migration out of the cities coincided with the civil rights movement, according to this view, is that the Great Migration of black sharecroppers from the South was effectively an instrument of mass migration into ethnic neighborhoods. Mass migration always fragments the peoples into which the migration flows. So, given this interpretation, this was not some manifestation of racism, but of disintegrating neighborhoods (the "white guys" throwing rocks in Marquette Park were apparently Lithuanians who felt that their community was threatened by this migration). Many of these neighborhoods were also Catholic, and with falling birth rates among Protestants following the 1930 Lambeth Conference, the idea of Catholics outbreeding them was not something they cared to endure.
saiya-jin 5y ago
By moving to far better country you gain much more than just money. Its tons of things usually, that completely redefine overall level of quality of life. Health care, social care, low crime rate, better schools for children and generally much better environment for them to grow up and have better lives (again, not in monetary sense, this comes just as consequence of the rest). It can be very stimulating. Its a huge step, too big for way too many people, but definitely worth it for many others. It looks much worse from far than actually doing the steps though, you break them down into atomic parts just like any other problem solving. I've done it twice and when looking back to those 10/15 years, it was the right choice, probably the best in my life. But its best done before starting family.
notahacker 5y ago
To add to which, the people who are most likely to get visas to move to much richer countries tend to be the ones that start off in their own country's upper middle class (allowing them to tick all the right educational boxes to become software developers or nurses, or at least have savings to pay people smugglers). They can still be materially a lot richer and often enjoy many other lifestyle benefits from moving overseas even if they have to drop down the status ladder and forget about owning land and having servants, but it does make the decision a bit more of a tradeoff than a salary comparison might suggest. The option of moving isn't really there for the people who are so poor there's no upside to staying in their own country.
- golemiprague 5y ago
  That really depends on geography, if you border with a rich country also the poor people can migrate illegally just by crossing the border, that's what happening with Mexico and the US or Africa and Europe. But indeed those people don't always do so well in their new country, it just creates more problems. In general migration is not such a great solution because once too many people migrates from the same place it just creates a nation within a nation and you are setting the country for the next civil war, whether proper war or low key between all the different groups. The best way to solve the issue is within each country, China did much more to alleviate poverty for a huge number of people comparing to what migration achieved.

VWWHFSfQ 5y ago

My guess is the richer countries make it hard to migrate to them. USA is relatively easy to migrate to compared to basically anywhere in western Europe, UK, Canada, Japan, or South Korea.

gassiss 5y ago
I don't know about the others, but Canada is probably the easiest developed country to immigrate to. You can basically get a green card before you even land
cblconfederate 5y ago
Usa is harder
atemerev 5y ago
USA is one of the hardest countries in the world to immigrate (and still one of the most attractive).
- Jensson 5y ago
  If you include illegal immigration then USA is probably easier than most other western nations. USA is very accepting of illegal immigrants for some reason.
  - kevinventullo 5y ago
    You know it never really occurred to me before this, but is there anything more American than working hard to skirt poorly implemented rules in order to enrich yourself and those around you? Am I talking about illegal immigrants or Uber?
    - Jensson 5y ago
      That is a good point. California is top both on tech start-ups and illegal immigrants.
  - 5y ago

vietthan 5y ago

0.03 * 7,900,000,000 = 237,000,000 . Btw, that's not a rate, just a hard count by the world Economic Forum. That's a lot of people. There's so many variables when it comes to migration that an individual has to face, a percentage that high is actually quite significant. Rising quality of life also means immigration pressure isn't as high.

beebeepka 5y ago

People with guns and boots make sure it stays low.

School-Cotton 5y ago

Because migration is difficult, unpleasant, and usually illegal.

netizen-936824 5y ago
Since when is moving to different countries illegal?
- perl4ever 5y ago
  Without implying anything about other Western countries, and setting aside the US, I was curious how difficult it is to legally immigrate to Canada, since it's the nearest option to me, and everybody likes Canada. The following is what I found (no personal experience, just reading official sources on the internet) While in theory one can move to Canada legally, it appears to me that becoming a permanent resident would be difficult or impossible for most people in the world. There is a complicated points system that possibly a lot of HN readers could qualify for, but not most people. They do not want you if you aren't a member of the managerial class, professional, or skilled tradesperson. They also do not want you if you aren't between 18 and 35. It's not completely impossible but if you are closer to 50, there is a substantial penalty to your score. They do not want you if you have any health or mental condition that they determine will put a burden on the public system. They do not want you if you aren't fluent in English or French. They do not want you if you aren't highly educated. They do not want you if you don't have a guarantee of employment in Canada for a sufficient amount of time or a lot of money. Having a job in Canada isn't necessarily enough. They do not want you if you have a criminal record, especially any form of DWI, whether alcohol, pot, or something else. Marrying a Canadian is not an automatic pass. There are also a bunch of specialized programs with different criteria, such as for refugees, people working as caregivers, etc.
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  I said usually, not always. You need a visa to do so which developed countries only grant in limited circumstances (e.g., to educated people with job offers in high-demand fields).