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Back when I was a cultist I was proud of how effectively I could canvas. :-) For context: If you look into street epistemology, it's similar to what I was doin

Back when I was a cultist I was proud of how effectively I could canvas. :-) For context: If you look into street epistemology, it's similar to what I was doing. From the other side, so to speak. We then played doubt (I think the SE creator calls it the pebble in the shoe) into action, and as long as we could suggest the action, in the absence of other suggested actions, the actions we suggested were taken. Pray in this way, listen for the answers we tell you to listen for, act as if God told you to do this, add this new structure to your life, keep this one, subtract that one. Review what you're grateful for and be happy feeling content with all these amazing blessings...BTW did we mention that you have successfully changed your life, the thing you told us you wanted? You spread this across months of friendly visits against a backdrop of loneliness in a chillingly pragmatic society...I mean we taught people how to visit, respect and take care of their elders, which is STILL not something that's exactly on blast in modern society. Cults have pros in addition to the cons, those pros are where followers come from, the followers look at the cons and say "everything has faults," bada-bing, they're in, and that's the simple truth you have to come to terms with. It's infuriating to think about now in a lot of ways, but this is also a good lesson in how human psych works in general. Using these techniques I was told that I got doubters into the church at about 9x the average rate for our first-world region. I gave all credit to the big guy.

technothrasher 5y ago
> If you look into street epistemology, it's similar to what I was doing. I don't see that what you were doing is all that close to what they do in street epistemology. Sure, you're both canvasing, and you're both attempting it instill doubt in people by asking questions, but the SE folks are trying to teach people better epistemological skills to evaluate any belief they hold or claim they come across. You were just attempting to fill the doubt void with some new claim, without teaching the people you talked to anything about how to evaluate the truth of a claim.
- themodelplumber 5y ago
  I didn't describe how I used the SE-like techniques, just the context in which they were used. Watch the recent Mormon Stories podcast with Shawn McCraney having SE used on him by Anthony Magnabosco and you'll see a good sample of A) how I talked to people a lot of the time and B) exemplary failure cases for SE based around ethics and subjective considerations. SE is in large part based around the metabolization of logic, specifically subjective-contextual logic, which I think the founder did a good job (humbly) showing has important boundaries as well. With some psychologies it will be like bringing MMA skills into an aerial dogfight. You have to decide if you want to win by holding out somehow or reassess the situation and toolset, maybe even ditching the win/lose idea if that's the way the situation started.
7952 5y ago
I went to a funeral for a Jehovah's Witnesses once. The priest came and talked to me and my 2 atheist friends afterwards. He asked if we were baptized. And then said how in his church they wait until people are older to decide for themselves. We all nodded in agreement, sounded sensible. But in hindsight he was just canvasing us. Prompt some critical thinking and plant an idea that people will lazily agree with. Total bs of course as to an atheist a baptised baby is exactly the same as an unbaptised one!
- themodelplumber 5y ago
  Sounds familiar...I was kinda that guy a lot. I also had a weird pride in being on HN, reading phys.org, participating in FOSS projects alongside scientific community members, meeting up with them and hosting them at my house...but also being so extra as to know even more than these scientists, in some incredible ways! I hoped someday they'd see the truth. (Sigh) There's this power of location and meeting context in your example too. When I was young and not yet even part of leadership, we were taught to invite people to come to our favorite spiritual locations with us. Then, while there, we would gently and firmly declare our beliefs and ask the other if they could deny that they felt the truth in it...and by that point they are, even just relationally speaking, posed with one hell of a problem. BTW organizing funerals for people you don't know very well is stressful AF.

technothrasher 5y ago

> If you look into street epistemology, it's similar to what I was doing. I don't see that what you were doing is all that close to what they do in street epistemology. Sure, you're both canvasing, and you're both attempting it instill doubt in people by asking questions, but the SE folks are trying to teach people better epistemological skills to evaluate any belief they hold or claim they come across. You were just attempting to fill the doubt void with some new claim, without teaching the people you talked to anything about how to evaluate the truth of a claim.

themodelplumber 5y ago
I didn't describe how I used the SE-like techniques, just the context in which they were used. Watch the recent Mormon Stories podcast with Shawn McCraney having SE used on him by Anthony Magnabosco and you'll see a good sample of A) how I talked to people a lot of the time and B) exemplary failure cases for SE based around ethics and subjective considerations. SE is in large part based around the metabolization of logic, specifically subjective-contextual logic, which I think the founder did a good job (humbly) showing has important boundaries as well. With some psychologies it will be like bringing MMA skills into an aerial dogfight. You have to decide if you want to win by holding out somehow or reassess the situation and toolset, maybe even ditching the win/lose idea if that's the way the situation started.

7952 5y ago

I went to a funeral for a Jehovah's Witnesses once. The priest came and talked to me and my 2 atheist friends afterwards. He asked if we were baptized. And then said how in his church they wait until people are older to decide for themselves. We all nodded in agreement, sounded sensible. But in hindsight he was just canvasing us. Prompt some critical thinking and plant an idea that people will lazily agree with. Total bs of course as to an atheist a baptised baby is exactly the same as an unbaptised one!

themodelplumber 5y ago
Sounds familiar...I was kinda that guy a lot. I also had a weird pride in being on HN, reading phys.org, participating in FOSS projects alongside scientific community members, meeting up with them and hosting them at my house...but also being so extra as to know even more than these scientists, in some incredible ways! I hoped someday they'd see the truth. (Sigh) There's this power of location and meeting context in your example too. When I was young and not yet even part of leadership, we were taught to invite people to come to our favorite spiritual locations with us. Then, while there, we would gently and firmly declare our beliefs and ask the other if they could deny that they felt the truth in it...and by that point they are, even just relationally speaking, posed with one hell of a problem. BTW organizing funerals for people you don't know very well is stressful AF.