5 ms·

What exactly is the "metaverse" supposed to be, other than a marketing term to sell a more expensive class of IO devices? People will not switch over in droves

What exactly is the "metaverse" supposed to be, other than a marketing term to sell a more expensive class of IO devices? People will not switch over in droves to do their text/image/video editing in VR all of a sudden, because other than a few special design applications, there is no point in doing so...it's slower, clumsier and the input devices are much less precise than mouse&keyboard. Another supposed target demographic, people in IT won't switch either. I see no point in virtually grabbing a glowing code-ball and throing it into the "deploy-tube", or navigate a codebase using haptic gestures with the huge meat-styluses at the end of my arms, when I can simply type `git push` or `/myAwesomeStruct` I also have a hard time imagining management sitting in meetings while wearing a 400g headset for 3h. Or companies being willing to cough up 350+$ for every employee just so they can join meetings, when Zoom is basically free. So, what else is there? Gaming and maybe some "recreational apps" (aka. alsogaming, only less interactive). And since not all games will take place in the same unified MMORPG-ish permanent universe (yes, people want to play in sessions, and people want to play single player, and people want to play while not connected to the internet), this will not be a paradigm-shift, but rather a new toy in an already large collection of other toys.

donmcronald 5y ago
The inefficiency may not matter if the inconvenienced workers don't get a say. A virtual environment is a corporate dream come true in terms of monitoring. Imagine an AI manager that could monitor workers and virtually walk up behind the ones that aren't being productive. With spatial audio every worker could feel like they're being monitored continuously when it's really just an AI manager monitoring everyone. Just think of everything in terms of observing / monitoring / tracking and you can see why some of it will start getting pushed really hard. There are some neat things. If I could have a virtual workspace that rivaled 4k monitors and brought my real keyboard / mouse into the VR world, I can't say I'd be opposed to setting up in a virtual office with an amazing view instead of the 10'x10' box I currently live in. > I also have a hard time imagining management sitting in meetings while wearing a 400g headset for 3h. I have a Quest 2 and after about 1h I need to take it off and have a break. That's not an issue for gaming, but it has a long way to go before being a productivity tool. There's also going to be huge commercial benefits for anyone that can convince the public to adopt VR environments instead of real environments. Imagine a generation of movie goers where friends gather in a VR theater to watch the newest movie. They still pay admission, but you have no costs beyond licensing IP. There are apps on the VR stores that are already laying the ground work for that type of setup.
- kilna 5y ago
  If you have a virtual boss so good it can't be easily gamed (it actually knows the worker's job), and also so socially nuanced that people will actually work for it, then you have an AI advanced enough to just do the worker's job and the worker wouldn't be there in the first place.
  - mlac 5y ago
    I would not work at a place with someone virtually breathing down my neck...
    - Bellend 5y ago
      The good thing with that is just to say "you feel sick" assuming your life got so terrible that you are working in VR with a fake avatar with no legs sitting in front of a fake rendered desk in a fake rendered office whilst the boss has time to watch your every move in VR. It's comical to the point that I don't know if people here are serious or taking the piss.
- usrbinbash 5y ago
  > If I could have a virtual workspace that rivaled 4k monitors and brought my real keyboard / mouse into the VR world IF that happens, and IF the input devices are not weighty headsets, and IF they offer the same level of haptic feedback, count me in.
charcircuit 5y ago
Nothing is stopping you from using your keyboard in VR.
- usrbinbash 5y ago
  Nothing is stopping me from writing a google-ASR powered program hooked into my terminal, and start yelling my code into the computer either. But as long as this isn't faster, easier or more reliable than typing it on a keyboard, I won't. People don't work a certain way because it's possible. People work a certain way because it saves time, money, sanity, or simply because it's convenient. If wearing a VR headset while coding isn't providing substantial benefits over what my current system provides, why would I do it?
  - charcircuit 5y ago
    The difference is you can already use a keyboard in VR where your system sounds like you would have to go and mild it. >If wearing a VR headset while coding isn't providing substantial benefits over what my current system provides, why would I do it? You wouldn't.
    - usrbinbash 5y ago
      How can I use my keyboard in VR? There are only 2 options: Either I see the keyboard through some sort of passthrough, in which case the entire VR experience is basically just an overly expensive desktop background. Or the keyboard is replaced by a VR representation, which relies on the device knowing where the keyboard is. Obviously, that will require a special keyboard with IR markers, so good bye custom keyboard, good bye laptop keyboard. Oh, and I cannot see my hand movements on it, which kinda defeats the purpose of seeing the keyboard, because current hand tracking technology cannot keep up. Neither of these offer me any benefit over the cheaper, easier and functional technology that I am using right now.
AnotherGoodName 5y ago
The Motorola DynaTAC mobile phone was about the same size as a VR headset is today. Imagine the same improvements are made to VR that were made to phones. The VR headsets are expensive bricks right now but they'll be in glasses form factor (or better) with extraordinary usability in the relatively near future. An overlay on the real world that brings remote and nearby contacts into the same room seamlessly.
- giantrobot 5y ago
  > The Motorola DynaTAC mobile phone was about the same size as a VR headset is today. > Imagine the same improvements are made to VR that were made to phones. Your missing some important details here. The DynaTAC was the whole telephone. All the electronics and battery were in the unit. The better VR headsets need a giant PC attached to them. Even with the giant PC on mains power and brick of a headset top of the line VR experiences are pretty lackluster. What you're talking about isn't going from the DynaTAC to the iPhone. You're talking about a giant PC on mains power with a brick of a VR headset and shrinking it to just a headset (or glasses) powered by a battery. Even if you set your VR baseline to the fully detached headsets they're not at a fully usable by normal people state. While it's not impossible to go from the giant PC on mains power, it's unlikely to be happening in the near term. The DynaTAC was battery powered so it was a continuum of development from it to an iPhone. The DynaTAC was a user device for an existing and well developed telephone system (infrastructure and services). VR still doesn't even have that everyday use case let alone the technology to make it really workable. This is all the more challenging because today's technology is pushing up against hard physical limits. Today's GPUs on mains power with at the cutting edge of semiconductor manufacturing are hard pressed to render 4K resolution at consistently high framerates. Mobile GPUs aren't even close. So there's still a lot of question marks between today and "realistically usable VR" and a whole lot more between that an VR sunglasses.
- usrbinbash 5y ago
  What if I don't want an overlay but actual VR? Goodbye prism-projection, hello splitlense-screen and all the form restrictions to the device that brings with it. Besides, the hardware doesn't get much smaller than it is. The chips are not the problem, the problem is the power supply. We have already reached a limit for phones, and that only because advertising somehow managed to convince people that it's okay for one of their most important personal electronic devices to go flat in less than a day (quick reminder that mobile phones used to last 4-5 without recharging ;-) ) So, what do we do? Put super small Li-Ion batteries into our "metaverse" devices? Not much of an immersive experience if the thing goes down after 20 minutes. So, big heavy battery it is then, and that's that about slim, cool, SciFi VR glasses. And what about input? Displaying information is not enough, the whole thing is supposed to be interactive. Voice control only gets you so far, and is unsuitable for most interesting things we want to do (virtual keyboards, games, movement, etc.), not to mention it's not even possible in most scenarios without being permanently online to contact the ASR service (oh, did I mention that the WiFi and LTE/5G modules also gobble up power like noones business?). So it's not just the headset, I also need an input device, or rather 2.
Bellend 5y ago
I was thinking about exactly this today! On the right of me I have an oculus quest which I got 2-3 months ago and honestly, it is gathering dust. Just the idea of picking it up and putting it on my face is enough to make me think meh. I did though and I feel like I can't be the only one who finds it really frustrating to the point of making me furious. 1. I started with my eyes at floor level. 2. It moans about a guardian, this by far is the most soul sapping thing of all time. The thing is, I have dev mode, but I do find guardian useful (I punched some walls previously). It's just so annoying though. 3. It asks me to set up guardian every fucking time. 4. Followed by when I try the Oculus Link... do I want to trust this computer. 5. I start steam VR but it doesn't work as it cannot find my headset but at this point, I am strapped in and 2 meters from my desk (ala stationary guardian) so I take it off to restart steam VR and the Oculus app. 6. Sometimes the Oculus app simply doesn't work and I have to reinstall it. 7. For some reason my Oculus link cable is loose unlike other USB-C cables/ports so it disconnects from the movement of my standing desk intermittently enough to not be a problem but also highly annoying. 8. Sometimes things don't start in VR but in Flat mode, this means removing the headset to sort it out (see point 5). I feel like jumping in and out of the experience makes it almost unusable. It really doesn't take me long to just give up. On the news the other day there was a guy from Microsoft and Facebook talking about how like "WOAH AVATARS ARE THE FUTURE". Like it is something new. I actually stopped playing Consoles (PS3/360?) because of all the Avatar setup shit with profiles. It's just that but in a fake office or room looking at bad 3d avatars and somehow this changes everything.... There is a long way to go. The best thing I have ever seen on my Oculus was when my girlfriend sent me a porn film for a laugh and it was actually pretty good as far as experiences go. In saying all of this though. Beat Sabre and Super Hot are genuinely good experiences but they are as old as time itself so I feel that very very few things work well in VR. They are either completely shit (Skyrim VR etc), or very good with no in between.
- agar 5y ago
  Jeez, you're slagging the entire value of VR because your specific setup is finicky? Your complaints # 1-3 are a software issue that, while mildly annoying, will ultimately be resolved in an update. Creating a new guardian is literally a 15 second process. Numbers 4-8 are because you choose to use a wireless headset from Oculus as a wired headset through Steam. Of course that's your choice, but the optimized workflow - that the vast majority of buyers use and is the primary product design - is to use on-headset apps without a PC or cable entirely. It's also highly unfair to say "very very few things work well in VR" based on your experience. The vast majority of consumers don't care about Facebook IDs, or PCVR, or Steam libraries, or future compatibility concerns, or the other reasons you probably choose the setup you do. If you want to judge the current state of VR for the mass market, go to the on-headset Quest store and try Walking Dead, Resident Evil 4, Walkabout Mini Golf, Contractors, Eleven Table Tennis, I Expect You to Die, Thrill of the Fight, In Death: Unchained, Fisherman's Tale, RealVR Fishing, Golf+, Moss, Tetris Effect, Pistol Whip, Red Matter, Shadow Point, or any of the other highly rated games that work out of the box.
agar 5y ago
John Carmack (consulting CTO for VR at Facebook/Meta) said in his most recent talk on VR (paraphrasing despite quotes), "The internet has been described as people and screens. I've been arguing that the metaverse is just more people and more screens. Trillions of dollars of investment have made 2D screens very effective tools for delivering information. If the metaverse can deliver that information anywhere, at scale, shared with geographically disparate people in the same virtual location, then it will have real value." I've thought about this and come to agree. Ignore the Snow Crash/Ready Player One "everyone lives in VR" hype, and for now ignore the "all games are interconnected in a shared world" fantasy and just think people and screens. Already in VR, you can create multiple 2D screens for working in any number or configuration. You can place that in any kind of environment you find comfortable working in. You can create a "window" into the real world to see your real keyboard and mouse. You can see avatars of people in the same room that really feel like they're next to you. All of this is a bit clunky and the resolution is lower than hoped, but it works. Now scale this up, advance technology, and add time. Higher resolution and lighter headsets are inevitable. Will people want to work in VR? If it means 4 screens on the balcony of a Tuscan villa instead of a tiny desk in a depressing space? Maybe. They can still type "git push" on a 2d screen with a real keyboard in a virtual space. Will companies buy a $300 device for every employee? If that replaces the $300 monitors they already buy, it could actually save money. Will execs wear a 400g headset for 3h? What about if it's a 100g headset and lets them feel present with a globally distributed team that can sit around the same virtual conference table with spatial audio and see body language and facial expressions[1]? Maybe. The benefits for shared movies, group gatherings, co-working, and social gaming are very compelling. If you stop projecting your preconceived ideas of what a "metaverse" is, and instead ask "what are the opportunities afforded by immersive shared and networked spaces being available to the masses through pervasive cheap technology?", you can come up with pretty compelling use cases that, taken together, ultimately form a far more likely "metaverse" in the near-term (<5 years). [1] Search for "Codec Avatars" to see progress here. Here's an article with some videos: https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/28/22751177/facebook-meta-codec-avatar-real-time-environment-rendering-neural-interface https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/28/22751177/facebook-meta-c...
- giantrobot 5y ago
  > Will people want to work in VR? If it means 4 screens on the balcony of a Tuscan villa instead of a tiny desk in a depressing space? Maybe. There's a lot more to physical environments than high resolution graphics. You've got more senses than just sight. Your body is still experiencing the depressing desk even if your eyes are trying to convince you that you're at a Tuscan villa. That seems more depressing. You're essentially just describing a high resolution 3D desktop wallpaper.

donmcronald 5y ago

The inefficiency may not matter if the inconvenienced workers don't get a say. A virtual environment is a corporate dream come true in terms of monitoring. Imagine an AI manager that could monitor workers and virtually walk up behind the ones that aren't being productive. With spatial audio every worker could feel like they're being monitored continuously when it's really just an AI manager monitoring everyone. Just think of everything in terms of observing / monitoring / tracking and you can see why some of it will start getting pushed really hard. There are some neat things. If I could have a virtual workspace that rivaled 4k monitors and brought my real keyboard / mouse into the VR world, I can't say I'd be opposed to setting up in a virtual office with an amazing view instead of the 10'x10' box I currently live in. > I also have a hard time imagining management sitting in meetings while wearing a 400g headset for 3h. I have a Quest 2 and after about 1h I need to take it off and have a break. That's not an issue for gaming, but it has a long way to go before being a productivity tool. There's also going to be huge commercial benefits for anyone that can convince the public to adopt VR environments instead of real environments. Imagine a generation of movie goers where friends gather in a VR theater to watch the newest movie. They still pay admission, but you have no costs beyond licensing IP. There are apps on the VR stores that are already laying the ground work for that type of setup.

kilna 5y ago
If you have a virtual boss so good it can't be easily gamed (it actually knows the worker's job), and also so socially nuanced that people will actually work for it, then you have an AI advanced enough to just do the worker's job and the worker wouldn't be there in the first place.
- mlac 5y ago
  I would not work at a place with someone virtually breathing down my neck...
  - Bellend 5y ago
    The good thing with that is just to say "you feel sick" assuming your life got so terrible that you are working in VR with a fake avatar with no legs sitting in front of a fake rendered desk in a fake rendered office whilst the boss has time to watch your every move in VR. It's comical to the point that I don't know if people here are serious or taking the piss.
usrbinbash 5y ago
> If I could have a virtual workspace that rivaled 4k monitors and brought my real keyboard / mouse into the VR world IF that happens, and IF the input devices are not weighty headsets, and IF they offer the same level of haptic feedback, count me in.

charcircuit 5y ago

Nothing is stopping you from using your keyboard in VR.

usrbinbash 5y ago
Nothing is stopping me from writing a google-ASR powered program hooked into my terminal, and start yelling my code into the computer either. But as long as this isn't faster, easier or more reliable than typing it on a keyboard, I won't. People don't work a certain way because it's possible. People work a certain way because it saves time, money, sanity, or simply because it's convenient. If wearing a VR headset while coding isn't providing substantial benefits over what my current system provides, why would I do it?
- charcircuit 5y ago
  The difference is you can already use a keyboard in VR where your system sounds like you would have to go and mild it. >If wearing a VR headset while coding isn't providing substantial benefits over what my current system provides, why would I do it? You wouldn't.
  - usrbinbash 5y ago
    How can I use my keyboard in VR? There are only 2 options: Either I see the keyboard through some sort of passthrough, in which case the entire VR experience is basically just an overly expensive desktop background. Or the keyboard is replaced by a VR representation, which relies on the device knowing where the keyboard is. Obviously, that will require a special keyboard with IR markers, so good bye custom keyboard, good bye laptop keyboard. Oh, and I cannot see my hand movements on it, which kinda defeats the purpose of seeing the keyboard, because current hand tracking technology cannot keep up. Neither of these offer me any benefit over the cheaper, easier and functional technology that I am using right now.

AnotherGoodName 5y ago

The Motorola DynaTAC mobile phone was about the same size as a VR headset is today. Imagine the same improvements are made to VR that were made to phones. The VR headsets are expensive bricks right now but they'll be in glasses form factor (or better) with extraordinary usability in the relatively near future. An overlay on the real world that brings remote and nearby contacts into the same room seamlessly.

giantrobot 5y ago
> The Motorola DynaTAC mobile phone was about the same size as a VR headset is today. > Imagine the same improvements are made to VR that were made to phones. Your missing some important details here. The DynaTAC was the whole telephone. All the electronics and battery were in the unit. The better VR headsets need a giant PC attached to them. Even with the giant PC on mains power and brick of a headset top of the line VR experiences are pretty lackluster. What you're talking about isn't going from the DynaTAC to the iPhone. You're talking about a giant PC on mains power with a brick of a VR headset and shrinking it to just a headset (or glasses) powered by a battery. Even if you set your VR baseline to the fully detached headsets they're not at a fully usable by normal people state. While it's not impossible to go from the giant PC on mains power, it's unlikely to be happening in the near term. The DynaTAC was battery powered so it was a continuum of development from it to an iPhone. The DynaTAC was a user device for an existing and well developed telephone system (infrastructure and services). VR still doesn't even have that everyday use case let alone the technology to make it really workable. This is all the more challenging because today's technology is pushing up against hard physical limits. Today's GPUs on mains power with at the cutting edge of semiconductor manufacturing are hard pressed to render 4K resolution at consistently high framerates. Mobile GPUs aren't even close. So there's still a lot of question marks between today and "realistically usable VR" and a whole lot more between that an VR sunglasses.
usrbinbash 5y ago
What if I don't want an overlay but actual VR? Goodbye prism-projection, hello splitlense-screen and all the form restrictions to the device that brings with it. Besides, the hardware doesn't get much smaller than it is. The chips are not the problem, the problem is the power supply. We have already reached a limit for phones, and that only because advertising somehow managed to convince people that it's okay for one of their most important personal electronic devices to go flat in less than a day (quick reminder that mobile phones used to last 4-5 without recharging ;-) ) So, what do we do? Put super small Li-Ion batteries into our "metaverse" devices? Not much of an immersive experience if the thing goes down after 20 minutes. So, big heavy battery it is then, and that's that about slim, cool, SciFi VR glasses. And what about input? Displaying information is not enough, the whole thing is supposed to be interactive. Voice control only gets you so far, and is unsuitable for most interesting things we want to do (virtual keyboards, games, movement, etc.), not to mention it's not even possible in most scenarios without being permanently online to contact the ASR service (oh, did I mention that the WiFi and LTE/5G modules also gobble up power like noones business?). So it's not just the headset, I also need an input device, or rather 2.

Bellend 5y ago

I was thinking about exactly this today! On the right of me I have an oculus quest which I got 2-3 months ago and honestly, it is gathering dust. Just the idea of picking it up and putting it on my face is enough to make me think meh. I did though and I feel like I can't be the only one who finds it really frustrating to the point of making me furious. 1. I started with my eyes at floor level. 2. It moans about a guardian, this by far is the most soul sapping thing of all time. The thing is, I have dev mode, but I do find guardian useful (I punched some walls previously). It's just so annoying though. 3. It asks me to set up guardian every fucking time. 4. Followed by when I try the Oculus Link... do I want to trust this computer. 5. I start steam VR but it doesn't work as it cannot find my headset but at this point, I am strapped in and 2 meters from my desk (ala stationary guardian) so I take it off to restart steam VR and the Oculus app. 6. Sometimes the Oculus app simply doesn't work and I have to reinstall it. 7. For some reason my Oculus link cable is loose unlike other USB-C cables/ports so it disconnects from the movement of my standing desk intermittently enough to not be a problem but also highly annoying. 8. Sometimes things don't start in VR but in Flat mode, this means removing the headset to sort it out (see point 5). I feel like jumping in and out of the experience makes it almost unusable. It really doesn't take me long to just give up. On the news the other day there was a guy from Microsoft and Facebook talking about how like "WOAH AVATARS ARE THE FUTURE". Like it is something new. I actually stopped playing Consoles (PS3/360?) because of all the Avatar setup shit with profiles. It's just that but in a fake office or room looking at bad 3d avatars and somehow this changes everything.... There is a long way to go. The best thing I have ever seen on my Oculus was when my girlfriend sent me a porn film for a laugh and it was actually pretty good as far as experiences go. In saying all of this though. Beat Sabre and Super Hot are genuinely good experiences but they are as old as time itself so I feel that very very few things work well in VR. They are either completely shit (Skyrim VR etc), or very good with no in between.

agar 5y ago
Jeez, you're slagging the entire value of VR because your specific setup is finicky? Your complaints # 1-3 are a software issue that, while mildly annoying, will ultimately be resolved in an update. Creating a new guardian is literally a 15 second process. Numbers 4-8 are because you choose to use a wireless headset from Oculus as a wired headset through Steam. Of course that's your choice, but the optimized workflow - that the vast majority of buyers use and is the primary product design - is to use on-headset apps without a PC or cable entirely. It's also highly unfair to say "very very few things work well in VR" based on your experience. The vast majority of consumers don't care about Facebook IDs, or PCVR, or Steam libraries, or future compatibility concerns, or the other reasons you probably choose the setup you do. If you want to judge the current state of VR for the mass market, go to the on-headset Quest store and try Walking Dead, Resident Evil 4, Walkabout Mini Golf, Contractors, Eleven Table Tennis, I Expect You to Die, Thrill of the Fight, In Death: Unchained, Fisherman's Tale, RealVR Fishing, Golf+, Moss, Tetris Effect, Pistol Whip, Red Matter, Shadow Point, or any of the other highly rated games that work out of the box.

agar 5y ago

John Carmack (consulting CTO for VR at Facebook/Meta) said in his most recent talk on VR (paraphrasing despite quotes), "The internet has been described as people and screens. I've been arguing that the metaverse is just more people and more screens. Trillions of dollars of investment have made 2D screens very effective tools for delivering information. If the metaverse can deliver that information anywhere, at scale, shared with geographically disparate people in the same virtual location, then it will have real value." I've thought about this and come to agree. Ignore the Snow Crash/Ready Player One "everyone lives in VR" hype, and for now ignore the "all games are interconnected in a shared world" fantasy and just think people and screens. Already in VR, you can create multiple 2D screens for working in any number or configuration. You can place that in any kind of environment you find comfortable working in. You can create a "window" into the real world to see your real keyboard and mouse. You can see avatars of people in the same room that really feel like they're next to you. All of this is a bit clunky and the resolution is lower than hoped, but it works. Now scale this up, advance technology, and add time. Higher resolution and lighter headsets are inevitable. Will people want to work in VR? If it means 4 screens on the balcony of a Tuscan villa instead of a tiny desk in a depressing space? Maybe. They can still type "git push" on a 2d screen with a real keyboard in a virtual space. Will companies buy a $300 device for every employee? If that replaces the $300 monitors they already buy, it could actually save money. Will execs wear a 400g headset for 3h? What about if it's a 100g headset and lets them feel present with a globally distributed team that can sit around the same virtual conference table with spatial audio and see body language and facial expressions[1]? Maybe. The benefits for shared movies, group gatherings, co-working, and social gaming are very compelling. If you stop projecting your preconceived ideas of what a "metaverse" is, and instead ask "what are the opportunities afforded by immersive shared and networked spaces being available to the masses through pervasive cheap technology?", you can come up with pretty compelling use cases that, taken together, ultimately form a far more likely "metaverse" in the near-term (<5 years). [1] Search for "Codec Avatars" to see progress here. Here's an article with some videos: https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/28/22751177/facebook-meta-codec-avatar-real-time-environment-rendering-neural-interface https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/28/22751177/facebook-meta-c...

giantrobot 5y ago
> Will people want to work in VR? If it means 4 screens on the balcony of a Tuscan villa instead of a tiny desk in a depressing space? Maybe. There's a lot more to physical environments than high resolution graphics. You've got more senses than just sight. Your body is still experiencing the depressing desk even if your eyes are trying to convince you that you're at a Tuscan villa. That seems more depressing. You're essentially just describing a high resolution 3D desktop wallpaper.