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Sure. But that has little to do with what the group believes. They could believe that the earth is flat or hollow, but as long as they’re there for each other,

Sure. But that has little to do with what the group believes. They could believe that the earth is flat or hollow, but as long as they’re there for each other, they would increase the fitness of everyone in the group. It just has nothing to do with how “rational” and evidence based the group is. Therefore there is no selective pressure towards being rational.

pydry 5y ago
I wouldnt hold out much hope of a flat earth tribe being able to deal with objective reality well enough to aid me. I'm pretty sure there is selective pressure towards being rational, it's just really hard to select for and even then probably not the most important thing. I remember when I met my first evangelical fundamentalist I couldn't for the life of me figure out why he earnestly believed this nonsense about the world being 7000 years or whatever. It was only when he said that he used to be a homeless drug addict and he was helped out of addiction by a Christian group that it twigged - they showed him kindness that the rest of the world had not. I'm pretty sure being rescued not only rearranged his whole world view such that the world is 7000 years old. I'm pretty sure it also rearranged his world view to view facts as less important than kindness.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  >I'm pretty sure it also rearranged his world view to view facts as less important than kindness. If I was a strident atheist and my life was saved by a Christian fundamentalist, it seems plausible to me that I would subsequently be less prejudiced against such people and less concerned about the areas in which I thought they were incorrect. But not that I would believe whatever they do.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  >I wouldnt hold out much hope of a flat earth tribe being able to deal with objective reality well enough to aid me. I'm pretty sure there is selective pressure towards being rational, it's just really hard to select for and even then probably not the most important thing. I'm pretty sure there is selective pressure against being rational. Take your drug addict. The flexibility to rearrange his whole worldview likely increased his fitness significantly. Now he has a support network and community, not to mention the help with addition. To put it differently: While joining rationalist tribe may confer more fitness than joining the irriationalist tribe, the best fitness is having flexibility to adapt to any tribe you can and not be alone.
scotty79 5y ago
How about sticking with anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers? This literally killed some people.
- nindalf 5y ago
  Not supporting anti-vaxxers. Anti-vaxxers would be spreading disease, sure. Although it would lower their survival rates, they also affect the survival rates of the out-group by spreading it to vulnerable folks. So being stupid doesn’t affect them exclusively. Next, once you’ve become an anti-vaxxer and burned bridges with sane people there’s no turning back. At that point becoming “rational” and accepting vaccines is the irrational choice because you lose your only community, and you are all alone. Like I said, loneliness kills. This is moot because the psychological pain of admitting they’re wrong is too much anyway. So they’ll stick to the group. But my only contention is that post-bridge burning, the rational thing to do is to stick to the community that will care for you.
- native_samples 5y ago
  Ah, but one of the reasons they became anti-vaxxers is they believe vaccines are hurting/killing people who take them, and thus being in the vaxx-all-the-time camp could also literally kill people. Or at least is not necessarily the safest tribe to be a part of. Now, you may feel that's a ridiculous belief. But your belief it's ridiculous comes mostly from your own intuitions about the trustworthiness of institutions, perhaps some personal experience or intuited cost/benefit ratios, etc. It's not something that can be portably summed up in a neat box labelled "facts".
  - scotty79 5y ago
    > believe vaccines are hurting/killing people who take them Yes, that's a false belief of this tribe that is directly contributing to their mortality > and thus being in the vaxx-all-the-time camp could also literally kill people No, because that belief does not conform with reality. > Now, you may feel that's a ridiculous belief. It is. > It's not something that can be portably summed up in a neat box labelled "facts". It can be. For reasonable definitions of a word 'fact'.

pydry 5y ago

I wouldnt hold out much hope of a flat earth tribe being able to deal with objective reality well enough to aid me. I'm pretty sure there is selective pressure towards being rational, it's just really hard to select for and even then probably not the most important thing. I remember when I met my first evangelical fundamentalist I couldn't for the life of me figure out why he earnestly believed this nonsense about the world being 7000 years or whatever. It was only when he said that he used to be a homeless drug addict and he was helped out of addiction by a Christian group that it twigged - they showed him kindness that the rest of the world had not. I'm pretty sure being rescued not only rearranged his whole world view such that the world is 7000 years old. I'm pretty sure it also rearranged his world view to view facts as less important than kindness.

perl4ever 5y ago
>I'm pretty sure it also rearranged his world view to view facts as less important than kindness. If I was a strident atheist and my life was saved by a Christian fundamentalist, it seems plausible to me that I would subsequently be less prejudiced against such people and less concerned about the areas in which I thought they were incorrect. But not that I would believe whatever they do.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
>I wouldnt hold out much hope of a flat earth tribe being able to deal with objective reality well enough to aid me. I'm pretty sure there is selective pressure towards being rational, it's just really hard to select for and even then probably not the most important thing. I'm pretty sure there is selective pressure against being rational. Take your drug addict. The flexibility to rearrange his whole worldview likely increased his fitness significantly. Now he has a support network and community, not to mention the help with addition. To put it differently: While joining rationalist tribe may confer more fitness than joining the irriationalist tribe, the best fitness is having flexibility to adapt to any tribe you can and not be alone.

scotty79 5y ago

How about sticking with anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers? This literally killed some people.

nindalf 5y ago
Not supporting anti-vaxxers. Anti-vaxxers would be spreading disease, sure. Although it would lower their survival rates, they also affect the survival rates of the out-group by spreading it to vulnerable folks. So being stupid doesn’t affect them exclusively. Next, once you’ve become an anti-vaxxer and burned bridges with sane people there’s no turning back. At that point becoming “rational” and accepting vaccines is the irrational choice because you lose your only community, and you are all alone. Like I said, loneliness kills. This is moot because the psychological pain of admitting they’re wrong is too much anyway. So they’ll stick to the group. But my only contention is that post-bridge burning, the rational thing to do is to stick to the community that will care for you.
native_samples 5y ago
Ah, but one of the reasons they became anti-vaxxers is they believe vaccines are hurting/killing people who take them, and thus being in the vaxx-all-the-time camp could also literally kill people. Or at least is not necessarily the safest tribe to be a part of. Now, you may feel that's a ridiculous belief. But your belief it's ridiculous comes mostly from your own intuitions about the trustworthiness of institutions, perhaps some personal experience or intuited cost/benefit ratios, etc. It's not something that can be portably summed up in a neat box labelled "facts".
- scotty79 5y ago
  > believe vaccines are hurting/killing people who take them Yes, that's a false belief of this tribe that is directly contributing to their mortality > and thus being in the vaxx-all-the-time camp could also literally kill people No, because that belief does not conform with reality. > Now, you may feel that's a ridiculous belief. It is. > It's not something that can be portably summed up in a neat box labelled "facts". It can be. For reasonable definitions of a word 'fact'.