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Dumpster fire compared to what? Nuget? NPM? It may be that some more recent languages managed to start a saner solution and keep it sane. But really, it's a ha

Dumpster fire compared to what? Nuget? NPM? It may be that some more recent languages managed to start a saner solution and keep it sane. But really, it's a hard problem, between cross-platform support, backwards compatibility, security concerns, hosting, most authors being volunteers and so on. And still, even with "just" pip or even conda I am enjoying the Python experience more than some other packaging solutions I've seen.

zerocount 5y ago
Compared to nothing. Dumpster fire just means it sucks. To be fair, most of them do though.
short_sells_poo 5y ago
It's objectively a dumpster fire. I don't care about other languages also being a dumpster fire on the packaging front, because I don't use other languages :) It also doesn't help me to know that NPM or .NET have rubbish packaging systems, that's their problem and not mine. I'd primarily want python's packaging system to be good. I mean, just look at this thread. Someone asks "So in light of this, what should I use for python packaging?", and they get two dozen different answers loaded with weirdness like pyenv, python-venv, virtualenvwrapper, etc... If I wasn't using python, I would've thought this is some cruel python in-joke that outsiders don't get. Just looking at those names, I'm already confused as to what the hell each are doing and why do I need them? But let's go back to pip and conda. Conda is unbearably slow. Pip is not entirely reliable in resolving versions properly. There's also not entirely cooperative interaction between conda and pip. If you use conda, you should not use pip (or just minimally) because it'll result in a mess. Yes, packaging is hard, but it feels like python has managed to solve (or not solve) it in a uniquely obtuse and bad way so far. Hopefully the slew of new PEPs will finally bring some clarity to this mess.
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  When you say Python's way is uniquely obtuse, you are making a comparison to other packaging systems. Labeling something a "dumpster fire" is a value judgement. It can't be "objective", unless there is a physical dumpster that is burning. It's not like the Python community hasn't solved this problem because it's lazy or incompetent. It's just a hard problem.
- anentropic 5y ago
  > Pip is not entirely reliable in resolving versions properly It must be true because people say something like this any time a "python packaging sucks" thread comes along ... but I can't recall ever experiencing that in 10 years of Python-ing The people having problems always seem to mention Conda though I guess the parts that have problems are primarily where FFI and compilation or linking of non-Python code is happening?

zerocount 5y ago

Compared to nothing. Dumpster fire just means it sucks. To be fair, most of them do though.

short_sells_poo 5y ago

It's objectively a dumpster fire. I don't care about other languages also being a dumpster fire on the packaging front, because I don't use other languages :) It also doesn't help me to know that NPM or .NET have rubbish packaging systems, that's their problem and not mine. I'd primarily want python's packaging system to be good. I mean, just look at this thread. Someone asks "So in light of this, what should I use for python packaging?", and they get two dozen different answers loaded with weirdness like pyenv, python-venv, virtualenvwrapper, etc... If I wasn't using python, I would've thought this is some cruel python in-joke that outsiders don't get. Just looking at those names, I'm already confused as to what the hell each are doing and why do I need them? But let's go back to pip and conda. Conda is unbearably slow. Pip is not entirely reliable in resolving versions properly. There's also not entirely cooperative interaction between conda and pip. If you use conda, you should not use pip (or just minimally) because it'll result in a mess. Yes, packaging is hard, but it feels like python has managed to solve (or not solve) it in a uniquely obtuse and bad way so far. Hopefully the slew of new PEPs will finally bring some clarity to this mess.

bayesian_horse 5y ago
When you say Python's way is uniquely obtuse, you are making a comparison to other packaging systems. Labeling something a "dumpster fire" is a value judgement. It can't be "objective", unless there is a physical dumpster that is burning. It's not like the Python community hasn't solved this problem because it's lazy or incompetent. It's just a hard problem.
anentropic 5y ago
> Pip is not entirely reliable in resolving versions properly It must be true because people say something like this any time a "python packaging sucks" thread comes along ... but I can't recall ever experiencing that in 10 years of Python-ing The people having problems always seem to mention Conda though I guess the parts that have problems are primarily where FFI and compilation or linking of non-Python code is happening?