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Depends on if their thinking is authority based (dogmatic) or logic based. The logical people definitely change their minds when new evidence arises.

by hilyen 5y ago

GhettoComputers 5y ago
Isn’t logic a framework that can be seen under different lens? If I say it’s caused by x does it mean that your logical analysis of it being caused by y become invalidated? Logical explanations are consistent but that doesn’t mean the logic is correct. If a racist says a problem is caused by races, another says it seems to be caused by environmental factors, another states it’s society’s failures and another says it’s economics they are all logically consistent but dogmatic still. >“People are embraced or condemned according to their beliefs, so one function of the mind may be to hold beliefs that bring the belief-holder the greatest number of allies, protectors, or disciples, rather than beliefs that are most likely to be true.” >We don't always believe things because they are correct. Sometimes we believe things because they make us look good to the people we care about.
- causi 5y ago
  You're citing things that aren't cut and dry Sometimes facts can change your mind even when you find those facts extremely irritating. For a personal example, I hate that direct cash payments are the most efficient way to supplement people in need of help, but every study says that's the case and so that's the way I argue and the way I vote.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    What if I told you that lower taxes so they don’t get money taken out is even better?
    - causi 5y ago
      How does that apply to poor people?
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        They pay taxes too. Direct cash payments are good, but they’re often mostly consumed by the administration. I don’t rely on the government to help the poor, lower taxes from government and direct cash from gofundme and other sites is the most efficient.
        causi 5y ago
        I was mostly referring to the fact giving people money is more efficient than giving them material goods, even though it creates the opportunity for abuse.
watwut 5y ago
> The logical people definitely change their minds when new evidence arises. Nah. Logical people will happily simplify world ad absurdum and proceed ignoring all the facts that point to nuance.
bidivia 5y ago
Logical people(usually called Smart people) could be really really stupid. Einstein as a young fellow certainly did not change Planck's mind, and Heisenberg did not change Einstein's. Doesn't matter if we talk about Magellan, Newton or Darwin. They changed the world one death at a time. The reason is that logic is based on very few things(usually binary statements, true or false) and it can focus only on those things. They can dissect and understand deeply something very small and dead(static) but could have real problems understanding the whole system(big and alive[dynamic]). You only can focus on 5,6 things at a single time and need to invest a ton of time to get results. The world is not pure binary, like mathematics usually study it,the world have shades of gray and billions of things interacting all the time. In fact, without tools like cheap access to books that make it possible to complete the work someone else has done,and networks that share the knowledge like Universities, cities or the Internet, this process of analysis is so slow that it is completely useless. For understanding complete systems intuition is just much better and faster. Because it is an stochastic process that could integrate millions of things at once. For changing your mind you need proper training in the scientific process, and it takes a lot of work and effort to do, because it goes against our primal instincts. You need to be humble and train a beginner's mind all the time. The fact is that most people believe they are logical while everybody else is dogmatic. But they are not. They can not do something as basic exercise as proper debate in which they believe and defend only temporarly the opposite of what they really believe. Really logical people can see their own flaws as a human(illusions and biases) and only then compensate for them. I bet you,hilyen, believe your thinking is logic based. Hah!
pydry 5y ago
The "logical" people tend to cast doubt on the veracity of the evidence or believe unquestioningly according to tribe. "This study was badly done", etc.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mdp2021 5y ago
  Some «"logical" people tend to cast doubt». Then, anyway, will «definitely change their minds when new evidence arises». "Educated bets" are part of the intellectual game.
- dTal 5y ago
  Logical people by definition do what is logical. You seem to have assigned tribehood to a group you call "the logical people" who behave illogically. Without a mental ideal of an actual logical person, how can you ever aspire to behave logically yourself?
  - pydry 5y ago
    I wasn't saying this behavior was illogical nor that "logical" people are a tribe (although on HN, professing a belief in the primacy of logicality is certainly a tribal marker...) I'm merely saying that people who consider themselves "logical people who will change their mind when the facts change" will still ascertain veracity of facts and how much weight to give them in a tribal manner, even if they are not consciously aware of it.
the_only_law 5y ago
It seems the people stressing to me about how logical they are tend to be equally dogmatic.
mikkergp 5y ago
I think this is less one vs the other and more about how closely aligned people find their beliefs and their ideas (Maybe this is what you mean by dogmatic) I believe that no one should go hungry, that everyone deserves health care, and that everyone should have a place to live. No 'fact' is going to change that belief, but for some people that belief translates directly into an ideology. For me, facts could change how closely aligned I am to more market-based or socialist views to solve these problems. I don't believe in market-oriented solutions because I like competition or want people to suffer(whereas for some the idea of winners and losers is attractive) I like market oriented solutions because I think given the whole system it's more effective. And this is one of those weird ingrained personality things. Some people can't understand and think my _beliefs_ waffle. I similarly can't understand why those who have closely aligned beliefs and ideas can't see that an idea that seems to solve a problem on it's face doesn't actually solve that problem.

Depends on if their thinking is authority based (dogmatic) or logic based. The logical people definitely change their minds when new evidence arises.

by hilyen 5y ago

Depends on if their thinking is authority based (dogmatic) or logic based. The logical people definitely change their minds when new evidence arises.

GhettoComputers 5y ago

Isn’t logic a framework that can be seen under different lens? If I say it’s caused by x does it mean that your logical analysis of it being caused by y become invalidated? Logical explanations are consistent but that doesn’t mean the logic is correct. If a racist says a problem is caused by races, another says it seems to be caused by environmental factors, another states it’s society’s failures and another says it’s economics they are all logically consistent but dogmatic still. >“People are embraced or condemned according to their beliefs, so one function of the mind may be to hold beliefs that bring the belief-holder the greatest number of allies, protectors, or disciples, rather than beliefs that are most likely to be true.” >We don't always believe things because they are correct. Sometimes we believe things because they make us look good to the people we care about.

causi 5y ago
You're citing things that aren't cut and dry Sometimes facts can change your mind even when you find those facts extremely irritating. For a personal example, I hate that direct cash payments are the most efficient way to supplement people in need of help, but every study says that's the case and so that's the way I argue and the way I vote.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  What if I told you that lower taxes so they don’t get money taken out is even better?
  - causi 5y ago
    How does that apply to poor people?
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      They pay taxes too. Direct cash payments are good, but they’re often mostly consumed by the administration. I don’t rely on the government to help the poor, lower taxes from government and direct cash from gofundme and other sites is the most efficient.
      - causi 5y ago
        I was mostly referring to the fact giving people money is more efficient than giving them material goods, even though it creates the opportunity for abuse.

watwut 5y ago

> The logical people definitely change their minds when new evidence arises. Nah. Logical people will happily simplify world ad absurdum and proceed ignoring all the facts that point to nuance.

bidivia 5y ago

Logical people(usually called Smart people) could be really really stupid. Einstein as a young fellow certainly did not change Planck's mind, and Heisenberg did not change Einstein's. Doesn't matter if we talk about Magellan, Newton or Darwin. They changed the world one death at a time. The reason is that logic is based on very few things(usually binary statements, true or false) and it can focus only on those things. They can dissect and understand deeply something very small and dead(static) but could have real problems understanding the whole system(big and alive[dynamic]). You only can focus on 5,6 things at a single time and need to invest a ton of time to get results. The world is not pure binary, like mathematics usually study it,the world have shades of gray and billions of things interacting all the time. In fact, without tools like cheap access to books that make it possible to complete the work someone else has done,and networks that share the knowledge like Universities, cities or the Internet, this process of analysis is so slow that it is completely useless. For understanding complete systems intuition is just much better and faster. Because it is an stochastic process that could integrate millions of things at once. For changing your mind you need proper training in the scientific process, and it takes a lot of work and effort to do, because it goes against our primal instincts. You need to be humble and train a beginner's mind all the time. The fact is that most people believe they are logical while everybody else is dogmatic. But they are not. They can not do something as basic exercise as proper debate in which they believe and defend only temporarly the opposite of what they really believe. Really logical people can see their own flaws as a human(illusions and biases) and only then compensate for them. I bet you,hilyen, believe your thinking is logic based. Hah!

pydry 5y ago

The "logical" people tend to cast doubt on the veracity of the evidence or believe unquestioningly according to tribe. "This study was badly done", etc.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mdp2021 5y ago
Some «"logical" people tend to cast doubt». Then, anyway, will «definitely change their minds when new evidence arises». "Educated bets" are part of the intellectual game.
dTal 5y ago
Logical people by definition do what is logical. You seem to have assigned tribehood to a group you call "the logical people" who behave illogically. Without a mental ideal of an actual logical person, how can you ever aspire to behave logically yourself?
- pydry 5y ago
  I wasn't saying this behavior was illogical nor that "logical" people are a tribe (although on HN, professing a belief in the primacy of logicality is certainly a tribal marker...) I'm merely saying that people who consider themselves "logical people who will change their mind when the facts change" will still ascertain veracity of facts and how much weight to give them in a tribal manner, even if they are not consciously aware of it.

the_only_law 5y ago

It seems the people stressing to me about how logical they are tend to be equally dogmatic.

mikkergp 5y ago

I think this is less one vs the other and more about how closely aligned people find their beliefs and their ideas (Maybe this is what you mean by dogmatic) I believe that no one should go hungry, that everyone deserves health care, and that everyone should have a place to live. No 'fact' is going to change that belief, but for some people that belief translates directly into an ideology. For me, facts could change how closely aligned I am to more market-based or socialist views to solve these problems. I don't believe in market-oriented solutions because I like competition or want people to suffer(whereas for some the idea of winners and losers is attractive) I like market oriented solutions because I think given the whole system it's more effective. And this is one of those weird ingrained personality things. Some people can't understand and think my _beliefs_ waffle. I similarly can't understand why those who have closely aligned beliefs and ideas can't see that an idea that seems to solve a problem on it's face doesn't actually solve that problem.