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I think it is that the movement itself has caused crime to increase. My friend is a police officer and is moving out of my progressive state to a more conserva

I think it is that the movement itself has caused crime to increase. My friend is a police officer and is moving out of my progressive state to a more conservative one. He told me this is happening in nearly every department. His reasoning was that they use to feel like they were on the side of the community, but in many places it is now the community is opposed to the police. Also they don’t risk certain things because they might have to use force and they’re worried they’ll be charged with a crime f or doing so, (especially if people riot enough and the DA needs to satisfy them). All that adds up to more crime, even though budgets will probably rise to pay more to try to convince officers to stay. How do we both protest police brutality when it rears its head, while still treating officers like they’re on the side of the good guys (like most, but not all, are). I have no answer.

heavyset_go 5y ago
> All that adds up to more crime And yet there is a dearth of evidence for this claim.
- mostertoaster 5y ago
  As is the claim that police use force unjustly more often against PoC
  - alphabettsy 5y ago
    The evidence relies on self-reporting. If use of force data resulting in death has proven to be inaccurate than what reliability can be expected when we’re talking about an unjustified assault?
scrollbar 5y ago
That may or may not be true and is worth exploring more. Although as another poster points out, this is a vastly different argument than saying as the article does: >As the surge in violence has become less theoretical to white, middle class residents, Oakland’s mayor has been afforded the political space to push to restore the funds that were cut from the police budget. Which seems to be to be a misunderstanding of consensus reality
ryguytilidie 5y ago
>His reasoning was that they use to feel like they were on the side of the community, but in many places it is now the community is opposed to the police. This is like your grandpa telling you kids have no respect nowadays when all he does is scream at any kid he sees and then demands respect. It works both ways. Police used to be part of the community. Then they put themselves in tanks and body armor and come into every situation guns blazing and scared of everyone in the community. How is the community supposed to react...?
- warkdarrior 5y ago
  Clearly the community reacted: - Many in the community marched to "Defund the Police". - Others in the community started committing more crimes. Unfortunately those two groups are part of the same community, so they'll have to learn to get along.
uoaei 5y ago
If cops aren't willing to do their jobs, and instead let their feelings get in the way, they are negligent in their service and incompetent... to say the least. It is not the jobs of people being policed to watch their own tone so they avoid offending cops. It is the job of cops to serve and protect, full stop. It is well-known that police departments align closely with the cultural segments that (among other things) critique alleged "snowflakes". If what you say is true then there is ironically a glut of snowflakes at our local precincts and they cannot be trusted to handle weapons in public spaces.
- giantg2 5y ago
  You're not necessarily wrong, but if the conditions of any job are such that people are no longer interested in doing it, it becomes harder to attract, replace, and retain people. Reluctance of police to get involved or respond to incidents, law enforcement discretion, is not new and has a long history, including abuses and refusal of service. The real question is how can we attract and retain officers that want to do the job?
  - cmh89 5y ago
    > The real question is how can we attract and retain officers that want to do the job? Maybe the job just doesn't make sense in modern America? If police as a concept didn't exist already, no one would create it. If you broke it down into its parts, you find plenty of people who would sign up to handle mental health crisis and plenty of people to sign up to handle quality of life problems. You'd have a third group that wants to do the more dangerous stuff.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      "If police as a concept didn't exist already, no one would create it." Is there any evidence of that? Seems there are quite a few who support them as-is and many more who want to see minor reforms. What do you mean by quality of life problems? How do we plan to staff in that model given police response time already averages 5 minutes (would it then be 15, or would we have 3x the cost to fill 3x the positions)?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
monkeybutton 5y ago
If police actually held their peers accountable, people wouldn't be rioting and this downward spiral would stop.
- spfzero 5y ago
  It doesn't seem like rioters wait patiently to see if someone will be held accountable, before rioting.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Really? it seems like many of the protests occur directly after major acquittals of police?
    - twelve40 5y ago
      Many is listed on the Wikipedia definition of a weasel word so it's hard to reply to this. But, specifically, the two largest recent ones: * George Floyd protests happened almost one full year before the trial outcome (which wasn't an acquittal btw) * Kenosha protests happened 6 months before the acquittal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_unrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_unrest
  - monkeybutton 5y ago
    Sure, people are angry and primed to riot at a moments notice. All it takes is a short video uploaded to the Internet to set one off now. They have lost patience because they have lost trust. How did this happen? It wasn't overnight.
confidantlake 5y ago
If most officers held the brutal ones accountable then there wouldn't be protests.
- Fervicus 5y ago
  I am trying to find the source, but I remember reading about how increased police presence actually decreases police brutality because they keep the others cops in check.
- mostertoaster 5y ago
  Yeah I think this is definitely part of the answer. Though I think there is some guilt on the other side when they’ve treated police departments as if they’re all the same. When every use of force against even the most vile of criminals, in legitimate life or death situations, is somehow proof of their racist tendencies if the perp was a PoC.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    > every use of force against even the most vile of criminals, in legitimate life or death situations, is somehow proof of their racist tendencies if the perp was a PoC. Example?
    - mostertoaster 5y ago
      Examples? Isn’t it enough that I feel like it is true? Think about it; if others read my statement and feel it is true they will think it is true. Cops who read it will think it is true as well. The facts might be it is not true, but if you believe the story being told... well it doesn’t matter does it. Which story is being believed, that the cops are evil racists, or that they are good guys with some bad apples? What story is being believed, that blacks are victims who need white mans help? Or that they are glorious victors over even oppression, so much so that the most loved president of the last 20 years is a black man? The facts don’t matter, because we only use them to promote the story we already agree with it?
    - 5y ago
908B64B197 5y ago
> Also they don’t risk certain things because they might have to use force and they’re worried they’ll be charged with a crime f or doing so, (especially if people riot enough and the DA needs to satisfy them). It's simple: don't commit crime. > How do we both protest police brutality when it rears its head, while still treating officers like they’re on the side of the good guys (like most, but not all, are). Get rid of the bad apples. Simple as that. No more unions and charges for those who decided to cover up instead of reporting malpractice. And liability insurance not paid by the taxpayers.

heavyset_go 5y ago

> All that adds up to more crime And yet there is a dearth of evidence for this claim.

mostertoaster 5y ago
As is the claim that police use force unjustly more often against PoC
- alphabettsy 5y ago
  The evidence relies on self-reporting. If use of force data resulting in death has proven to be inaccurate than what reliability can be expected when we’re talking about an unjustified assault?

scrollbar 5y ago

That may or may not be true and is worth exploring more. Although as another poster points out, this is a vastly different argument than saying as the article does: >As the surge in violence has become less theoretical to white, middle class residents, Oakland’s mayor has been afforded the political space to push to restore the funds that were cut from the police budget. Which seems to be to be a misunderstanding of consensus reality

ryguytilidie 5y ago

>His reasoning was that they use to feel like they were on the side of the community, but in many places it is now the community is opposed to the police. This is like your grandpa telling you kids have no respect nowadays when all he does is scream at any kid he sees and then demands respect. It works both ways. Police used to be part of the community. Then they put themselves in tanks and body armor and come into every situation guns blazing and scared of everyone in the community. How is the community supposed to react...?

warkdarrior 5y ago
Clearly the community reacted: - Many in the community marched to "Defund the Police". - Others in the community started committing more crimes. Unfortunately those two groups are part of the same community, so they'll have to learn to get along.

uoaei 5y ago

If cops aren't willing to do their jobs, and instead let their feelings get in the way, they are negligent in their service and incompetent... to say the least. It is not the jobs of people being policed to watch their own tone so they avoid offending cops. It is the job of cops to serve and protect, full stop. It is well-known that police departments align closely with the cultural segments that (among other things) critique alleged "snowflakes". If what you say is true then there is ironically a glut of snowflakes at our local precincts and they cannot be trusted to handle weapons in public spaces.

giantg2 5y ago
You're not necessarily wrong, but if the conditions of any job are such that people are no longer interested in doing it, it becomes harder to attract, replace, and retain people. Reluctance of police to get involved or respond to incidents, law enforcement discretion, is not new and has a long history, including abuses and refusal of service. The real question is how can we attract and retain officers that want to do the job?
- cmh89 5y ago
  > The real question is how can we attract and retain officers that want to do the job? Maybe the job just doesn't make sense in modern America? If police as a concept didn't exist already, no one would create it. If you broke it down into its parts, you find plenty of people who would sign up to handle mental health crisis and plenty of people to sign up to handle quality of life problems. You'd have a third group that wants to do the more dangerous stuff.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    "If police as a concept didn't exist already, no one would create it." Is there any evidence of that? Seems there are quite a few who support them as-is and many more who want to see minor reforms. What do you mean by quality of life problems? How do we plan to staff in that model given police response time already averages 5 minutes (would it then be 15, or would we have 3x the cost to fill 3x the positions)?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

monkeybutton 5y ago

If police actually held their peers accountable, people wouldn't be rioting and this downward spiral would stop.

spfzero 5y ago
It doesn't seem like rioters wait patiently to see if someone will be held accountable, before rioting.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Really? it seems like many of the protests occur directly after major acquittals of police?
  - twelve40 5y ago
    Many is listed on the Wikipedia definition of a weasel word so it's hard to reply to this. But, specifically, the two largest recent ones: * George Floyd protests happened almost one full year before the trial outcome (which wasn't an acquittal btw) * Kenosha protests happened 6 months before the acquittal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_unrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_unrest
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  Sure, people are angry and primed to riot at a moments notice. All it takes is a short video uploaded to the Internet to set one off now. They have lost patience because they have lost trust. How did this happen? It wasn't overnight.

confidantlake 5y ago

If most officers held the brutal ones accountable then there wouldn't be protests.

Fervicus 5y ago
I am trying to find the source, but I remember reading about how increased police presence actually decreases police brutality because they keep the others cops in check.
mostertoaster 5y ago
Yeah I think this is definitely part of the answer. Though I think there is some guilt on the other side when they’ve treated police departments as if they’re all the same. When every use of force against even the most vile of criminals, in legitimate life or death situations, is somehow proof of their racist tendencies if the perp was a PoC.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  > every use of force against even the most vile of criminals, in legitimate life or death situations, is somehow proof of their racist tendencies if the perp was a PoC. Example?
  - mostertoaster 5y ago
    Examples? Isn’t it enough that I feel like it is true? Think about it; if others read my statement and feel it is true they will think it is true. Cops who read it will think it is true as well. The facts might be it is not true, but if you believe the story being told... well it doesn’t matter does it. Which story is being believed, that the cops are evil racists, or that they are good guys with some bad apples? What story is being believed, that blacks are victims who need white mans help? Or that they are glorious victors over even oppression, so much so that the most loved president of the last 20 years is a black man? The facts don’t matter, because we only use them to promote the story we already agree with it?
  - 5y ago

908B64B197 5y ago

> Also they don’t risk certain things because they might have to use force and they’re worried they’ll be charged with a crime f or doing so, (especially if people riot enough and the DA needs to satisfy them). It's simple: don't commit crime. > How do we both protest police brutality when it rears its head, while still treating officers like they’re on the side of the good guys (like most, but not all, are). Get rid of the bad apples. Simple as that. No more unions and charges for those who decided to cover up instead of reporting malpractice. And liability insurance not paid by the taxpayers.