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> “If we reach that point, we cannot unite even in the face of war, climate change, pandemics, or other challenges to the survival of our society.” We no longe

> “If we reach that point, we cannot unite even in the face of war, climate change, pandemics, or other challenges to the survival of our society.” We no longer have differences in opinion, we have differences of reality. Climate Change, pandemics, January 6th... the list goes on and on now.

9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
I’d be surprised if we haven’t already passed such a tipping point. For me, the exclusion of Lawrence Lessig from political debates was a big indicator that things were already off the rails.
- starik36 5y ago
  I think we've had many "tipping" that keep pushing the denominator further down. The first time I saw that in my adult life was the memorial service for late Minnesota senator Paul Wellstone 20 years ago. The speakers turned it into a political rally. It was beyond distasteful. For some reason, it really stuck in my mind as the end of decency.
  - downWidOutaFite 5y ago
    It's funny as someone on the left I also remember the death of Paul Wellstone as a turning point. But to me it was the fact that the right wing media had become so powerful that they could manufacture whatever outrage they wanted. The manufactured outrage was that the funeral of the most passionate progressive senator, days before his election, became an expression of people wanting to continue his legacy. Everybody always says the liberal media is so powerful but I don't think it holds a candle to the right wing media's power to manufacture constant outrage. These live with constant popular uprisings manufactured by the right such as anti-CRT, anti-mask, anti-immigrant. The left has nowhere near that kind of power.
motohagiography 5y ago
It may be worth noting that such was the polarization of Great Britain in WWII that Ireland remained officially neutral while London was being bombarded with rockets, and they went right back to bombing each other within a few years of the external threat being removed. This is the level of polarization and sectarianism I've been warning about for years, and we're way deeper into it than I think most people realize. People only hate because it feels good to do it, righteous hate feels the best of all. There isn't a lot to compete with that feeling, except maybe actualizing one of the sadistic fantasies it creates. When your basic needs are taken care of and there's nothing else that is more intense in your life available to you, the little rush it gives you from hating those scumbags feels good and becomes a habit, and then it becomes as satisfying as having a cigarette or even a coffee in the morning, and so we seek out conflict. In nature fighting is expensive, so the conflict itself in many ways is also a luxury. The reason people are doing this is because they love it.They're going to do it until they realize they love it and then decide they don't anymore. I've thought a lot about what beliefs people would need to change to mitigate the chain reaction we've set in motion, and there is no single one or cluster that makes much of a difference. We like this too much, and we're affluent enough to indulge it. While I have opinions on which ones would really help, barring a wave of Damascene conversions, I can't think of anything persuasive enough to change someones idea of self. It would require a viral idea that improved the quality of someone's thought in general, where through transmitting it you could raise enough boats to head off the imminent dark period. Anyway, maybe we will just see what shakes out of a period of attrition.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
  > t may be worth noting that such was the polarization of Great Britain in WWII that Ireland remained officially neutral while London was being bombarded with rockets, and they went right back to bombing each other within a few years of the external threat being removed. This is the first I’ve heard of this. Do you have any references that dig into this time and context that you could share?
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Well, Ireland was neutral in World War 2 and the IRA actually allied itself with the Nazis. See "Operation Dove". "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing. Fact is, a bunch of European countries refused to fight the Nazis, or only declared war on them right at the very end when the Allies had already defeated them. It's never widely discussed because it's kind of shameful for those states. If the Allies had fallen, so would all the neutral countries and they wouldn't have been treated well by Hitler. They let the Brits, Americans and Russians fight, whilst sitting back and waiting to be saved.

9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago

I’d be surprised if we haven’t already passed such a tipping point. For me, the exclusion of Lawrence Lessig from political debates was a big indicator that things were already off the rails.

starik36 5y ago
I think we've had many "tipping" that keep pushing the denominator further down. The first time I saw that in my adult life was the memorial service for late Minnesota senator Paul Wellstone 20 years ago. The speakers turned it into a political rally. It was beyond distasteful. For some reason, it really stuck in my mind as the end of decency.
- downWidOutaFite 5y ago
  It's funny as someone on the left I also remember the death of Paul Wellstone as a turning point. But to me it was the fact that the right wing media had become so powerful that they could manufacture whatever outrage they wanted. The manufactured outrage was that the funeral of the most passionate progressive senator, days before his election, became an expression of people wanting to continue his legacy. Everybody always says the liberal media is so powerful but I don't think it holds a candle to the right wing media's power to manufacture constant outrage. These live with constant popular uprisings manufactured by the right such as anti-CRT, anti-mask, anti-immigrant. The left has nowhere near that kind of power.

motohagiography 5y ago

It may be worth noting that such was the polarization of Great Britain in WWII that Ireland remained officially neutral while London was being bombarded with rockets, and they went right back to bombing each other within a few years of the external threat being removed. This is the level of polarization and sectarianism I've been warning about for years, and we're way deeper into it than I think most people realize. People only hate because it feels good to do it, righteous hate feels the best of all. There isn't a lot to compete with that feeling, except maybe actualizing one of the sadistic fantasies it creates. When your basic needs are taken care of and there's nothing else that is more intense in your life available to you, the little rush it gives you from hating those scumbags feels good and becomes a habit, and then it becomes as satisfying as having a cigarette or even a coffee in the morning, and so we seek out conflict. In nature fighting is expensive, so the conflict itself in many ways is also a luxury. The reason people are doing this is because they love it.They're going to do it until they realize they love it and then decide they don't anymore. I've thought a lot about what beliefs people would need to change to mitigate the chain reaction we've set in motion, and there is no single one or cluster that makes much of a difference. We like this too much, and we're affluent enough to indulge it. While I have opinions on which ones would really help, barring a wave of Damascene conversions, I can't think of anything persuasive enough to change someones idea of self. It would require a viral idea that improved the quality of someone's thought in general, where through transmitting it you could raise enough boats to head off the imminent dark period. Anyway, maybe we will just see what shakes out of a period of attrition.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
> t may be worth noting that such was the polarization of Great Britain in WWII that Ireland remained officially neutral while London was being bombarded with rockets, and they went right back to bombing each other within a few years of the external threat being removed. This is the first I’ve heard of this. Do you have any references that dig into this time and context that you could share?
- native_samples 5y ago
  Well, Ireland was neutral in World War 2 and the IRA actually allied itself with the Nazis. See "Operation Dove". "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing. Fact is, a bunch of European countries refused to fight the Nazis, or only declared war on them right at the very end when the Allies had already defeated them. It's never widely discussed because it's kind of shameful for those states. If the Allies had fallen, so would all the neutral countries and they wouldn't have been treated well by Hitler. They let the Brits, Americans and Russians fight, whilst sitting back and waiting to be saved.