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> I'm familiar with the FSF's philosophy. Limiting freedom in order to protect it. I don't think that is a good characterization of FSF philosophy. Better cha

> I'm familiar with the FSF's philosophy. Limiting freedom in order to protect it. I don't think that is a good characterization of FSF philosophy. Better characterization is maximizing freedom for the [end-]user, as opposed to, for you, the developer, or other parties involved. > millions of users are also prevented from using their work. That is extremely weird to blame on GNU (sort of akin to "victim-shaming"). First, how are they prevented exactly, when the can download whatever GNU bash they want themselves? Second, it is Apple's deliberate choice to boycott and not to ship the software due to a perceived burden on them (or rather their active desire to keep unreasonable control,) than a legitimate concern imposed by the GNU GPL license. If any user is deprived of anything you got to blame Apple first for doing so.

cwp 5y ago
I think it's quite a good characterization. The FSF is pretty clear about their philosophy. They define four essential freedoms, two of which relate to redistributing software. By definition, someone who redistributes software is not the end user. In What is Free Software[0] the FSF says, "Freedom to distribute (freedoms 2 and 3) means you are free to redistribute copies, either with or without modifications, either gratis or charging a fee for distribution, to anyone anywhere. Being free to do these things means (among other things) that you do not have to ask or pay for permission to do so." It looks to me like the FSF takes the freedom to redistribute software fairly seriously. Yet the GPL explicitly forbids redistribution unless certain conditions are met. In other words, they limit freedoms 2 and 3. Given how seriously they take freedom, you'd think they have a good reason for limiting it. They do: to maximize the spread of freedom, even if it is limited. RMS, for example, wrote[1] "I make my code available for use in free software, and not for use in proprietary software, in order to encourage other people who write software to make it free as well." RMS also wrote an article called Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software[2]. But I'm not missing the point of free software. I understand the point very well. I just have different values. I don't care if other people who write software make it free. I want to maximize the value and utility of the software I write, and restricting freedom gets in the way of that. Here's the thing: the FSF is basically trying to make the world safe for coders. All software should come with source code, so that everyone can tinker to their heart's content. But most people can't do that. Being able to modify the source is useless to them. Heck, even downloading and installing it is difficult. I guarantee you that the number of people who could install bash—even a binary distribution—is dwarfed by the number that could use it to run command-line tools. They'll just use whatever shell comes with the system. And if the FSF won't let Apple ship bash, they'll ship something else. So yeah, the FSF is preventing people from using bash. They think it's justified. I don't. [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/pragmatic.html [2] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

cwp 5y ago

I think it's quite a good characterization. The FSF is pretty clear about their philosophy. They define four essential freedoms, two of which relate to redistributing software. By definition, someone who redistributes software is not the end user. In What is Free Software[0] the FSF says, "Freedom to distribute (freedoms 2 and 3) means you are free to redistribute copies, either with or without modifications, either gratis or charging a fee for distribution, to anyone anywhere. Being free to do these things means (among other things) that you do not have to ask or pay for permission to do so." It looks to me like the FSF takes the freedom to redistribute software fairly seriously. Yet the GPL explicitly forbids redistribution unless certain conditions are met. In other words, they limit freedoms 2 and 3. Given how seriously they take freedom, you'd think they have a good reason for limiting it. They do: to maximize the spread of freedom, even if it is limited. RMS, for example, wrote[1] "I make my code available for use in free software, and not for use in proprietary software, in order to encourage other people who write software to make it free as well." RMS also wrote an article called Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software[2]. But I'm not missing the point of free software. I understand the point very well. I just have different values. I don't care if other people who write software make it free. I want to maximize the value and utility of the software I write, and restricting freedom gets in the way of that. Here's the thing: the FSF is basically trying to make the world safe for coders. All software should come with source code, so that everyone can tinker to their heart's content. But most people can't do that. Being able to modify the source is useless to them. Heck, even downloading and installing it is difficult. I guarantee you that the number of people who could install bash—even a binary distribution—is dwarfed by the number that could use it to run command-line tools. They'll just use whatever shell comes with the system. And if the FSF won't let Apple ship bash, they'll ship something else. So yeah, the FSF is preventing people from using bash. They think it's justified. I don't. [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/pragmatic.html [2] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html