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If you have a hammer... I am able to iterate orders of magnitude faster in Adobe Photoshop. Back and forth feedback with the customer and then the end result ge

If you have a hammer... I am able to iterate orders of magnitude faster in Adobe Photoshop. Back and forth feedback with the customer and then the end result gets coded in non-spaghetti reusable, themeable HTML/CSS. Seems you're iterating at the wrong phase.

crate_barre 5y ago
Depends. I’ve never used Tailwind, so I’ll entertain your aside. If you are mostly doing flat design, truthfully you should be designing in HTML/CSS/JS. This is a failure of setting expectations for designers. If you can get developers to learn Leetcode, get designers to code their designs. Design in the browser with browser technology, it’s just boxes, gradients and shadows for industrial level web design at the moment. You really shouldn’t even be designing in a tool like Photoshop or Figma given the current design paradigms. You will not iterate faster than what I am suggesting. Edit: The reason why we are here, why something like Tailwind and MUI exist, is mostly because we need an abstraction layer to do what a designer does on a whim. You can flick a shadow on and off on a Photoshop layer and mess with the subtlety of a drop shadow with a slider. If a designer makes a fickle change, the developer needs this abstraction to make the fickle change as fickle as the thought that made it. That’s why you have all these quick utility methods. The designer is one layer (no pun intended) removed. In 2021 (2022 really), it’s shocking the amount of latitude we give designers to still not be able to do CSS. A half competent designer could have a modest style sheet that mostly captures their design instincts, yet here we are, unable to capture their whims and must now have an albatross utility library to have manual laborers capture the translation - all because … they still won’t learn basic shit. And for what ultimately? These aren’t baroque art pieces, it is ultimately boxes with an aesthetic applied, all very describable with semantic HTML and CSS. But alas, our brilliant artists can’t be bothered. Here, send me your masterpiece so I can transform it for you. Take the bootcamp on web dev. You are literally the people I want going there. Not the Classics major that needs money because they picked a stupid major. It’s you guys that need it, and deserve it.
- handrous 5y ago
  > Design in the browser with browser technology, it’s just boxes, gradients and shadows for industrial level web design at the moment. You really shouldn’t even be designing in a tool like Photoshop or Figma given the current design paradigms. This is why all but the very best flat designs (which does not always correlate positively with the size or reputation of the firm turning them out—looking at you, Google) look to me like something I'd have turned out for a quick feature demo circa '05, with everyone at the table agreeing that, however nice the feature, a designer definitely needed to take a pass at it before it was released.
- robertoandred 5y ago
  Nah, don’t need designers passing along broken, useless CSS that has to be redone anyway. Let designers focus on designing, developers on developing.
  - crate_barre 5y ago
    Lol, bro, making their typography and layout changes is not really development. I’d much rather they just pick that up already.
Griffinsauce 5y ago
> non-spaghetti reusable, themeable HTML/CSS The words of an open mind. Each of those adjectives are very open to disagreement.
- zodiakzz 5y ago
  Perhaps. But hard coded colors, hard coded layout (flexbox etc), hard coded margins, paddings hard coded everything right in the markup. Tailwind and those adjectives are mutually exclusive. Does nobody remember themeing forums software like vbulletin? Designers weren't allowed to touch the markup in the slightest and yet so many amazing themes were made. Why? Styling wasn't hard-coded in the markup. Hell, remember the insanely customized old.reddit subreddits?
  - jf22 5y ago
    We should be comparing Tailwind to modern alternatives, not vBulletin CSS from 2004. FYI I'm a recent Tailwind convert so I agree that Tailwind is good, but your comment is like saying Tesla cars are great because they aren't horses.
    - zodiakzz 5y ago
      Whoosh. Well I prefer my "modern" alternatives to be superior than the legacy ones, not the other way around.
  - jagger27 5y ago
    All of the things you mention, including colours, are configurable or at least overridable at compile time. It's just not swapping a CSS file like the good ol' days. I won't argue if one is better than the other.

crate_barre 5y ago

Depends. I’ve never used Tailwind, so I’ll entertain your aside. If you are mostly doing flat design, truthfully you should be designing in HTML/CSS/JS. This is a failure of setting expectations for designers. If you can get developers to learn Leetcode, get designers to code their designs. Design in the browser with browser technology, it’s just boxes, gradients and shadows for industrial level web design at the moment. You really shouldn’t even be designing in a tool like Photoshop or Figma given the current design paradigms. You will not iterate faster than what I am suggesting. Edit: The reason why we are here, why something like Tailwind and MUI exist, is mostly because we need an abstraction layer to do what a designer does on a whim. You can flick a shadow on and off on a Photoshop layer and mess with the subtlety of a drop shadow with a slider. If a designer makes a fickle change, the developer needs this abstraction to make the fickle change as fickle as the thought that made it. That’s why you have all these quick utility methods. The designer is one layer (no pun intended) removed. In 2021 (2022 really), it’s shocking the amount of latitude we give designers to still not be able to do CSS. A half competent designer could have a modest style sheet that mostly captures their design instincts, yet here we are, unable to capture their whims and must now have an albatross utility library to have manual laborers capture the translation - all because … they still won’t learn basic shit. And for what ultimately? These aren’t baroque art pieces, it is ultimately boxes with an aesthetic applied, all very describable with semantic HTML and CSS. But alas, our brilliant artists can’t be bothered. Here, send me your masterpiece so I can transform it for you. Take the bootcamp on web dev. You are literally the people I want going there. Not the Classics major that needs money because they picked a stupid major. It’s you guys that need it, and deserve it.

handrous 5y ago
> Design in the browser with browser technology, it’s just boxes, gradients and shadows for industrial level web design at the moment. You really shouldn’t even be designing in a tool like Photoshop or Figma given the current design paradigms. This is why all but the very best flat designs (which does not always correlate positively with the size or reputation of the firm turning them out—looking at you, Google) look to me like something I'd have turned out for a quick feature demo circa '05, with everyone at the table agreeing that, however nice the feature, a designer definitely needed to take a pass at it before it was released.
robertoandred 5y ago
Nah, don’t need designers passing along broken, useless CSS that has to be redone anyway. Let designers focus on designing, developers on developing.
- crate_barre 5y ago
  Lol, bro, making their typography and layout changes is not really development. I’d much rather they just pick that up already.

Griffinsauce 5y ago

> non-spaghetti reusable, themeable HTML/CSS The words of an open mind. Each of those adjectives are very open to disagreement.

zodiakzz 5y ago
Perhaps. But hard coded colors, hard coded layout (flexbox etc), hard coded margins, paddings hard coded everything right in the markup. Tailwind and those adjectives are mutually exclusive. Does nobody remember themeing forums software like vbulletin? Designers weren't allowed to touch the markup in the slightest and yet so many amazing themes were made. Why? Styling wasn't hard-coded in the markup. Hell, remember the insanely customized old.reddit subreddits?
- jf22 5y ago
  We should be comparing Tailwind to modern alternatives, not vBulletin CSS from 2004. FYI I'm a recent Tailwind convert so I agree that Tailwind is good, but your comment is like saying Tesla cars are great because they aren't horses.
  - zodiakzz 5y ago
    Whoosh. Well I prefer my "modern" alternatives to be superior than the legacy ones, not the other way around.
- jagger27 5y ago
  All of the things you mention, including colours, are configurable or at least overridable at compile time. It's just not swapping a CSS file like the good ol' days. I won't argue if one is better than the other.