6 ms·

Germany lifts Doom sales ban after 17 years

92 points by Peroni 15y ago

pavel_lishin 15y ago
> Bethesda argued that the game's crude graphics had been surpassed by many modern titles and, as a result, the violence it depicted had far less of an impact. Reminded me of Niven's quote, "Ethics change with technology."
FrojoS 15y ago
We have full blown censorship here. Some titles like Mortal Kombat 1-3 [1] are still illegal to sell, even to adults. [1] http://www.bpjm.com/ http://www.bpjm.com/ (§ 131 StGB, bundesweit beschlagnahmt / confiscated nationwide) Requires a lot of click-through in German. Sorry, but I couldn't find an more accessible list.
- FrojoS 15y ago
  to add: Of course, there is also print, music and movies [1] that are confiscated and websites that are censored in search engines like 'google.de'. And not all due to violence or pornography but also for more political reasons, mostly holocaust denial. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Department_for_Media_Harmful_to_Young_Persons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Department_for_Media_Ha...
- ordinary 15y ago
  Is it just a ban on sale, or also a ban on ownership?
  - FrojoS 15y ago
    Even though the term 'beschlagnahmt / confiscated' suggests otherwise, only sale is illegal but ownership is legal.
    - Argorak 15y ago
      No. Sale and possession of confiscated items is illegal. This happens when a court (!) deems that the item is illegal. This list is often called "list B". If something is on list A (the infamous "index"), its "only" a restriction on sales, advertisement and whether you are allowed to give minors access to it.
- naner 15y ago
  Sorry, but I couldn't find an more accessible list. Is this accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games#Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games#Germ...
  - Argorak 15y ago
    No, the list from bpjm.com is actually quite complete. You might notice that the list of full bans is pretty short. There is no official list, as that would make a great shopping list :). Although all entries on List A and List B are announced in a monthly letter called "Bundesanzeiger" which is where all Laws and Decisions are published. So what you could do is get all of those since 1950 and find the corresponding entries.
Argorak 15y ago
Arstechnica has a pretty good writeup of the censorship thing in germany: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/12/from-australia-to-the-uae-why-games-get-the-banhammer.ars http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/12/from-australia-to... Its a bit more complex then outright bans. Complete bans of media are pretty rare in germany - this happens to media are punishable offenses by themselves. One infamous example is a game called "KZ Manager", basically your Football Manager for evil freaks. What happened to DooM was that it was deemed "dangerous for the youth". That means, you are not allowed to advertise for it or sell it openly. It is perfectly allowed though, to have a few boxes under the table and sell them to persons over 18. There are even special online resellers for those kind of media that demand age verification beforehand. This is pretty harsh punishment, but it does not render said media "illegal". It is also not a sales ban, but a restriction. I know its a fine line, but there is one.
- FrojoS 15y ago
  True, movies like Andy Warhols "Frankenstein" and "Dracula" or games like "UT" and "Q3", as well as, until now, "Doom" fall into the first, more common category, that you describe. But titles like "Mortal Combat 1-3" and "Castle Wolfenstein" fall into the more restrictive, where sales are completely forbidden.
  - Argorak 15y ago
    If you read my post fully, I also mention the second category. If a court decides that the game, etc. violates laws in itself, they can be fully banned. That happened to Wolfenstein (display of Swastikas) and Mortal Combat as well as some especially brutal movies (prohibitions against excessive display of suffering). Whether you are okay with those things or not, those are standing laws enforced by courts. There is no institution in Germany that can ban a game without a court decision. Also, games that got a rating by the BPJM cannot be indexed retrospectively.
    - jrockway 15y ago
      How do they ban a game when you can just import it from another EU country?
hackermom 15y ago
Related FYI: one of the first computer games to be banned in Germany was "Hitler Diktator", released for the Commodore 64 in 1986. The game was never published commercially, but authorities still placed a ban on possession of the game.
MikeCapone 15y ago
This reminds me, I've recently read the book Masters of Doom, which is mostly about the two Johns (Romero and Carmack) and it was excellent. I'm sure most people here would also like it.
parenthesis 15y ago
The 'SS' in the logo of the band Kiss, looks similar to the Nazi SS insignia, the display of which is banned (or somehow restricted, at least) in Germany. Hence Kiss uses a modified logo in Germany. Even though no Nazi reference was intended. (Indeed, Gene Simmons' mother is a Holocaust survivor.)
mhd 15y ago
Germany's obsession with "If children see dead people, we'll be back to 1933!" is getting a bit old. It was even weirder before the draft was quasi-abolished this year… "No, Heinz, laser tag will turn you into a killer! Now please turn your head and cough, so we can see whether you're able to join the Bundeswehr…"
- ma2rten 15y ago
  Still better than America's obsession with protecting kids from seeing nacked skin, IMO.
  - mhd 15y ago
    I might be wrong, but didn't some games have three versions: One as designed, one with covered boobage for the US and one with less blood & gore for Germany? I think the Conan MMORPG was one example of that…
- soult 15y ago
  This is what annoys me the most about the whole "Killerspiele" debate. I played Counter Strike a lot, and yet pretty much everything I thought I knew about firearms from that game turned out to be completely wrong. How did I find out? I was conscripted into my country's armed forces.
  - mhd 15y ago
    If I remember correctly, there are two main arguments: First, tactics. You learn how to move in a combat situation, you can theoretically recreate your school in your favorite game etc. Secondly, it (along with violent movies) makes you more callous towards violence, so that you're able to pull the trigger (repeatedly) in the first place. The latter is actually somewhat based on reality. The military has spent lots of effort in the last few decades to increase and focus the killing instinct of their soldiers. If I remember correctly, soldiers in WW2 (on any side) often shot over the head of their enemies because they couldn't imagine themselves killing another human being. Needless to say, the world's armies have spent a lot of moolah to correct that. And while Germany apparently thought that once you're 18 it's okay to imprint you in that manner (well, theoretically, it's not like the German Bundeswehr does a good job with this -- or anything at all), adolescents should be "protected" from this at any cost. It's a slippery slope with civil liberties in Germany. It's somewhat understandable that there were laws being put into place in '49 to prevent a Fourth Reich from rising. The problem is that once you start censorship for one reason, it's getting increasingly easier to extend the principle to other areas. Meanwhile, I haven't read a single news item that has any problems with the fact that a lot of people on the African continent get killed by German guns. I hear that the G36s are quite popular on both sides of the Libyan conflict.
anactofgod 15y ago
It just occurred to me that the restrictions on Doom and Doom II officially expired on Aug 31st, and Sep 01st is the anniversary of Germany's invasion of Poland. Just an interesting coincidental juxtaposition of events.
ww520 15y ago
OT. Is it generally the case that people outside of a system notice censorship in the system more easily? e.g. Americans detect censorship in Germany more readily than Germans. Censorship works well when the people being censored don't notice it.

92 points by Peroni 15y ago

> Bethesda argued that the game's crude graphics had been surpassed by many modern titles and, as a result, the violence it depicted had far less of an impact. Reminded me of Niven's quote, "Ethics change with technology."

FrojoS 15y ago

We have full blown censorship here. Some titles like Mortal Kombat 1-3 [1] are still illegal to sell, even to adults. [1] http://www.bpjm.com/ http://www.bpjm.com/ (§ 131 StGB, bundesweit beschlagnahmt / confiscated nationwide) Requires a lot of click-through in German. Sorry, but I couldn't find an more accessible list.

FrojoS 15y ago
to add: Of course, there is also print, music and movies [1] that are confiscated and websites that are censored in search engines like 'google.de'. And not all due to violence or pornography but also for more political reasons, mostly holocaust denial. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Department_for_Media_Harmful_to_Young_Persons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Department_for_Media_Ha...
ordinary 15y ago
Is it just a ban on sale, or also a ban on ownership?
- FrojoS 15y ago
  Even though the term 'beschlagnahmt / confiscated' suggests otherwise, only sale is illegal but ownership is legal.
  - Argorak 15y ago
    No. Sale and possession of confiscated items is illegal. This happens when a court (!) deems that the item is illegal. This list is often called "list B". If something is on list A (the infamous "index"), its "only" a restriction on sales, advertisement and whether you are allowed to give minors access to it.
naner 15y ago
Sorry, but I couldn't find an more accessible list. Is this accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games#Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games#Germ...
- Argorak 15y ago
  No, the list from bpjm.com is actually quite complete. You might notice that the list of full bans is pretty short. There is no official list, as that would make a great shopping list :). Although all entries on List A and List B are announced in a monthly letter called "Bundesanzeiger" which is where all Laws and Decisions are published. So what you could do is get all of those since 1950 and find the corresponding entries.

Argorak 15y ago

Arstechnica has a pretty good writeup of the censorship thing in germany: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/12/from-australia-to-the-uae-why-games-get-the-banhammer.ars http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/12/from-australia-to... Its a bit more complex then outright bans. Complete bans of media are pretty rare in germany - this happens to media are punishable offenses by themselves. One infamous example is a game called "KZ Manager", basically your Football Manager for evil freaks. What happened to DooM was that it was deemed "dangerous for the youth". That means, you are not allowed to advertise for it or sell it openly. It is perfectly allowed though, to have a few boxes under the table and sell them to persons over 18. There are even special online resellers for those kind of media that demand age verification beforehand. This is pretty harsh punishment, but it does not render said media "illegal". It is also not a sales ban, but a restriction. I know its a fine line, but there is one.

FrojoS 15y ago
True, movies like Andy Warhols "Frankenstein" and "Dracula" or games like "UT" and "Q3", as well as, until now, "Doom" fall into the first, more common category, that you describe. But titles like "Mortal Combat 1-3" and "Castle Wolfenstein" fall into the more restrictive, where sales are completely forbidden.
- Argorak 15y ago
  If you read my post fully, I also mention the second category. If a court decides that the game, etc. violates laws in itself, they can be fully banned. That happened to Wolfenstein (display of Swastikas) and Mortal Combat as well as some especially brutal movies (prohibitions against excessive display of suffering). Whether you are okay with those things or not, those are standing laws enforced by courts. There is no institution in Germany that can ban a game without a court decision. Also, games that got a rating by the BPJM cannot be indexed retrospectively.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    How do they ban a game when you can just import it from another EU country?

hackermom 15y ago

Related FYI: one of the first computer games to be banned in Germany was "Hitler Diktator", released for the Commodore 64 in 1986. The game was never published commercially, but authorities still placed a ban on possession of the game.

MikeCapone 15y ago

This reminds me, I've recently read the book Masters of Doom, which is mostly about the two Johns (Romero and Carmack) and it was excellent. I'm sure most people here would also like it.

parenthesis 15y ago

The 'SS' in the logo of the band Kiss, looks similar to the Nazi SS insignia, the display of which is banned (or somehow restricted, at least) in Germany. Hence Kiss uses a modified logo in Germany. Even though no Nazi reference was intended. (Indeed, Gene Simmons' mother is a Holocaust survivor.)

mhd 15y ago

Germany's obsession with "If children see dead people, we'll be back to 1933!" is getting a bit old. It was even weirder before the draft was quasi-abolished this year… "No, Heinz, laser tag will turn you into a killer! Now please turn your head and cough, so we can see whether you're able to join the Bundeswehr…"

ma2rten 15y ago
Still better than America's obsession with protecting kids from seeing nacked skin, IMO.
- mhd 15y ago
  I might be wrong, but didn't some games have three versions: One as designed, one with covered boobage for the US and one with less blood & gore for Germany? I think the Conan MMORPG was one example of that…
soult 15y ago
This is what annoys me the most about the whole "Killerspiele" debate. I played Counter Strike a lot, and yet pretty much everything I thought I knew about firearms from that game turned out to be completely wrong. How did I find out? I was conscripted into my country's armed forces.
- mhd 15y ago
  If I remember correctly, there are two main arguments: First, tactics. You learn how to move in a combat situation, you can theoretically recreate your school in your favorite game etc. Secondly, it (along with violent movies) makes you more callous towards violence, so that you're able to pull the trigger (repeatedly) in the first place. The latter is actually somewhat based on reality. The military has spent lots of effort in the last few decades to increase and focus the killing instinct of their soldiers. If I remember correctly, soldiers in WW2 (on any side) often shot over the head of their enemies because they couldn't imagine themselves killing another human being. Needless to say, the world's armies have spent a lot of moolah to correct that. And while Germany apparently thought that once you're 18 it's okay to imprint you in that manner (well, theoretically, it's not like the German Bundeswehr does a good job with this -- or anything at all), adolescents should be "protected" from this at any cost. It's a slippery slope with civil liberties in Germany. It's somewhat understandable that there were laws being put into place in '49 to prevent a Fourth Reich from rising. The problem is that once you start censorship for one reason, it's getting increasingly easier to extend the principle to other areas. Meanwhile, I haven't read a single news item that has any problems with the fact that a lot of people on the African continent get killed by German guns. I hear that the G36s are quite popular on both sides of the Libyan conflict.

anactofgod 15y ago

It just occurred to me that the restrictions on Doom and Doom II officially expired on Aug 31st, and Sep 01st is the anniversary of Germany's invasion of Poland. Just an interesting coincidental juxtaposition of events.

ww520 15y ago

OT. Is it generally the case that people outside of a system notice censorship in the system more easily? e.g. Americans detect censorship in Germany more readily than Germans. Censorship works well when the people being censored don't notice it.