9 ms·

PACER should have been free from the beginning. Gatekeeping legal information for profit (even if only used to supplement appropriations) isn't only a problem a

by ncphil 5y ago

PACER should have been free from the beginning. Gatekeeping legal information for profit (even if only used to supplement appropriations) isn't only a problem at the federal level. In many states you need a commercial subscription to even read court opinions and statutes, let alone search. Localities in most places rely on commercial publishers to archive the text of ordinances, which only those with ridiculously expensive subscriptions can access. The digitization of everything had just begun when I retired, but the handwriting was already on the wall. The contrast with the widespread availability of technical doc is staggering: and reminds me of why I changed careers.

javajosh 5y ago
The central dictum of the legal profession: "you will have to pry every piece of the leverage I have over you out of my cold, dead hands."
- gnicholas 5y ago
  > "central dictum" This is an interesting choice of terms, since in the legal world "dictum" typically refers to a statement included in a legal opinion that is not central to the court's holding (decision). The full name is "obiter dictum", meaning "something said in passing", but it's almost always just called "dictum" or "dicta" (plural). So although the ordinary definition of "dictum" is akin to pronouncement/dictate, in the legal context, "dictum" is a term of derogation ("that's just dictum"). To a lawyer, "central dictum" would be a contradiction in terms. Of course, this isn't a legal forum, so there's nothing wrong with what you said. It just causes mental hiccups for those of us afflicted with a legal background!
cwkoss 5y ago
A similar injustice is that many building codes are privately copyrighted AND enforced by law.
- criddell 5y ago
  They are privately copyrighted because those organizations research and develop the codes which is a significant expense. Since it's unlikely that taxpayers will accept paying for all of this stuff, the likely outcome is that specific code references will be removed from the law and replaced with an insurance requirement. And insurers are going to require the ferris wheel or elevator or boiler to comply with the same code that used to be in the law.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    I honestly feel like America is on a different planet sometimes. If it's required by law, then it should be free to read. What do you mean organizations research and develop codes at an expense? What organisations? Anyone other than the government is in charge of setting up the law? That doesn't ring any alarm bells there?
    - colejohnson66 5y ago
      Organizations such as everyone that works on standards at ISO, IEEE, etc. Should they be free to read? Yes! How am I supposed to comply with a law I can read, but can't follow? But the government doesn't need to do everything. In fact, quite a few laws defer to "best industry practices".
      - gambiting 5y ago
        Of course, but these organisations, even if private entities, will be paid by the government to conduct research and offer best practices and advice, so if the taxpayer is already paying for it....then it should be free to read - OP made it sound as if private organisations conducted research out of their own good will and therefore it was justified to charge the public for it.....which is fine, but not if the rules become law!
        criddell 5y ago
        Today the government usually doesn't pay them. They fund themselves by selling paper and electronic copies of the code. The idea is that if you are designing some type of equipment, then you should help pay for the development of the code governing that equipment. It maybe makes sense for esoteric things but not at all for common things (like the building and electrical codes covering all houses. Edit: Sometimes private organizations did write the codes for their members and later the government notices that's what everybody is using and it's working, so make it the law of the land.
reaperducer 5y ago
It's getting even worse than that. In some cities and counties, you have to pay to read real estate records online. Public documents that were free just a few years ago are now behind paywalls. Even though my tax dollars paid for these systems that were supposed to make the public documents public. Want to read it for free? Come on down to the courthouse, fill out a paper form, and we'll find the right book for you. Also for a fee. See also: GIS systems.
- Infernal 5y ago
  Yup. And then charge you a dollar a page to make copies.
CobrastanJorji 5y ago
Technical docs are better but far from perfect. For example, could you please link me to a copy of the C++ standard? It's ISO/IEC 14882:2020, if that helps.
- roblabla 5y ago
  The drafts are available in openstd, both of older versions of the standard[0], and the next, upcoming version[1]. Those are not technically the actual standards, but they're pretty close. But yes, I too dislike the fact that ISO standards are paid for. You know what bugs me the most? ISO 9660, the standard behind the .iso file format. It's been published in 1988, and today still costs roughly 130EUR to buy... [0]: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/standards http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/standards [1]: https://github.com/cplusplus/draft https://github.com/cplusplus/draft
  - CobrastanJorji 5y ago
    Going for the drafts is a clever workaround I hadn't thought of, thanks!
gred 5y ago
I think things are slowly moving in the right direction though, see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_v._Public.Resource.Org,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_v._Public.Resource.Org....

by ncphil 5y ago

javajosh 5y ago

The central dictum of the legal profession: "you will have to pry every piece of the leverage I have over you out of my cold, dead hands."

gnicholas 5y ago
> "central dictum" This is an interesting choice of terms, since in the legal world "dictum" typically refers to a statement included in a legal opinion that is not central to the court's holding (decision). The full name is "obiter dictum", meaning "something said in passing", but it's almost always just called "dictum" or "dicta" (plural). So although the ordinary definition of "dictum" is akin to pronouncement/dictate, in the legal context, "dictum" is a term of derogation ("that's just dictum"). To a lawyer, "central dictum" would be a contradiction in terms. Of course, this isn't a legal forum, so there's nothing wrong with what you said. It just causes mental hiccups for those of us afflicted with a legal background!

cwkoss 5y ago

A similar injustice is that many building codes are privately copyrighted AND enforced by law.

criddell 5y ago
They are privately copyrighted because those organizations research and develop the codes which is a significant expense. Since it's unlikely that taxpayers will accept paying for all of this stuff, the likely outcome is that specific code references will be removed from the law and replaced with an insurance requirement. And insurers are going to require the ferris wheel or elevator or boiler to comply with the same code that used to be in the law.
- gambiting 5y ago
  I honestly feel like America is on a different planet sometimes. If it's required by law, then it should be free to read. What do you mean organizations research and develop codes at an expense? What organisations? Anyone other than the government is in charge of setting up the law? That doesn't ring any alarm bells there?
  - colejohnson66 5y ago
    Organizations such as everyone that works on standards at ISO, IEEE, etc. Should they be free to read? Yes! How am I supposed to comply with a law I can read, but can't follow? But the government doesn't need to do everything. In fact, quite a few laws defer to "best industry practices".
    - gambiting 5y ago
      Of course, but these organisations, even if private entities, will be paid by the government to conduct research and offer best practices and advice, so if the taxpayer is already paying for it....then it should be free to read - OP made it sound as if private organisations conducted research out of their own good will and therefore it was justified to charge the public for it.....which is fine, but not if the rules become law!
      - criddell 5y ago
        Today the government usually doesn't pay them. They fund themselves by selling paper and electronic copies of the code. The idea is that if you are designing some type of equipment, then you should help pay for the development of the code governing that equipment. It maybe makes sense for esoteric things but not at all for common things (like the building and electrical codes covering all houses. Edit: Sometimes private organizations did write the codes for their members and later the government notices that's what everybody is using and it's working, so make it the law of the land.

reaperducer 5y ago

It's getting even worse than that. In some cities and counties, you have to pay to read real estate records online. Public documents that were free just a few years ago are now behind paywalls. Even though my tax dollars paid for these systems that were supposed to make the public documents public. Want to read it for free? Come on down to the courthouse, fill out a paper form, and we'll find the right book for you. Also for a fee. See also: GIS systems.

Infernal 5y ago
Yup. And then charge you a dollar a page to make copies.

CobrastanJorji 5y ago

Technical docs are better but far from perfect. For example, could you please link me to a copy of the C++ standard? It's ISO/IEC 14882:2020, if that helps.

roblabla 5y ago
The drafts are available in openstd, both of older versions of the standard[0], and the next, upcoming version[1]. Those are not technically the actual standards, but they're pretty close. But yes, I too dislike the fact that ISO standards are paid for. You know what bugs me the most? ISO 9660, the standard behind the .iso file format. It's been published in 1988, and today still costs roughly 130EUR to buy... [0]: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/standards http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/standards [1]: https://github.com/cplusplus/draft https://github.com/cplusplus/draft
- CobrastanJorji 5y ago
  Going for the drafts is a clever workaround I hadn't thought of, thanks!

gred 5y ago

I think things are slowly moving in the right direction though, see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_v._Public.Resource.Org,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_v._Public.Resource.Org....