5 ms·

Asking for evidence is shirking accountability and scrutiny? Is this how logic and reasoning work?

nescioquid 5y ago
Frankly, I cringe every time I see someone come back smartly with the pithy reply "got any citations"? I know the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, but what I see here is really a dressed up "nuh uh!" If you disagree, just give your rebuttal providing any evidence or citations you please.
- rednerrus 5y ago
  I'm not even trying to rebut OPs argument. If they have evidence for their claim I would love to see it. I see the claim that there is an epidemic of police violence and extra judicial punishment in many different places on the internet. When I press for evidence, I typically get a response like "bro, don't you see the videos on social media". That seems rather anecdotal to me and I'm interested in real numbers. I am genuinely interested in how people are coming to the conclusions they are coming to.
  - cptskippy 5y ago
    Part of the problem is the difficulty in gathering that evidence. Law enforcement routinely fails to report at all levels. The GAO slammed the DOJ for it's failure to do so for the last 5 years. Police supporters routinely say "show me the evidence" while going out of their way to prevent that evidence from being collected or reported on.
    - rednerrus 5y ago
      Then what are you basing your opinion on? Do you understand that you're saying "there really isn't any data to base it on, just believe me."
      - cptskippy 5y ago
        Just because someone hasn't tabulated everything into a nice spreadsheet or interactive graph on the NYT doesn't mean people can't form opinions. There's plenty of evidence that law enforcement are covering it up by the continued stone walling and repeated failures to report at all levels.
        rednerrus 5y ago
        Where is that evidence?
        cptskippy 5y ago
        https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-22-104456.pdf https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-22-104456.pdf
        rednerrus 5y ago
        Did you read this? What is it evidence of?
  - nescioquid 5y ago
    Your entire reply to me (sans the first two sentences) would have been a much better reply to the OP because it clearly states your skepticism to the claim but signals you are willing to change your mind given a certain type of evidence. That is something I will always respect. This is much better than your coy ploy, which resulted in an edifying digression into what the quaint term "weasel words" means (though I actually did 'lol' at the realization we're probably of the same generation). Finally, I sincerely apologize because I am sort of picking on you (but really picking on the maneuver) because I am so generally nauseated by what I consider an all-too-frequent conversational rebuttal that results in tedium rather than light shed on the matter. edit: I saw that you were down-voted, so I up-voted you. I think you have a valid point of view (though I may not agree) and I see no reason why anyone should be down-voted for dissension, especially when you lay out clearly what it takes to change your mind.
    - rednerrus 5y ago
      This is an absolutely fair criticism. I see that this reply is better than my first reply. My hope was to shed light on the matter and not get sucked into a tedious argument about what weasel words are. I'm honestly not sure what to believe when it comes to these claims. A lot of the claims that I see seem to be based on what are clearly outliers. I am actually interested in seeing what the numbers look like for use of force. I am interested in how people go about deciding what to believe, especially in this time of misinformation on the internet.
cwkoss 5y ago
Do you not see the circular logic in asking for official data that is evidence of police excessive force on a thread about police failing to share official data of excessive force? Your attitude is exactly what the anti-transparency police unions are trying promote: "No official evidence, so inaction is justified until that's available"
- rednerrus 5y ago
  I'm asking for any kind of evidence. It doesn't have to be official. There's nothing in what I'm saying that is calling for inaction. I'm asking OP for the evidence they're using to form their argument. Their argument is full of vague words alluding to an epidemic of police violence. If that is the case, show some evidence.
  - syki 5y ago
    It has been provided numerous time. A simple web search will give you more links to studies. Do your own research. You’ve spent a lot time not reading the links provided and not doing your own research. Clearly then you have no real interest in the topic.
    - rednerrus 5y ago
      You haven't posted a single piece of evidence for your initial assertions. You continue to post the same studies about increased domestic violence amongst police officers. That is not evidence for your initial statements.
  - cwkoss 5y ago
    Googling these names would be a good starting point: https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watching-black-people-die https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watchin... Again, there is no comprehensive official data bout this: hence the reason for this story. Case studies and incomplete data are all we have.
    - 5y ago

Frankly, I cringe every time I see someone come back smartly with the pithy reply "got any citations"? I know the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, but what I see here is really a dressed up "nuh uh!" If you disagree, just give your rebuttal providing any evidence or citations you please.

rednerrus 5y ago
I'm not even trying to rebut OPs argument. If they have evidence for their claim I would love to see it. I see the claim that there is an epidemic of police violence and extra judicial punishment in many different places on the internet. When I press for evidence, I typically get a response like "bro, don't you see the videos on social media". That seems rather anecdotal to me and I'm interested in real numbers. I am genuinely interested in how people are coming to the conclusions they are coming to.
- cptskippy 5y ago
  Part of the problem is the difficulty in gathering that evidence. Law enforcement routinely fails to report at all levels. The GAO slammed the DOJ for it's failure to do so for the last 5 years. Police supporters routinely say "show me the evidence" while going out of their way to prevent that evidence from being collected or reported on.
  - rednerrus 5y ago
    Then what are you basing your opinion on? Do you understand that you're saying "there really isn't any data to base it on, just believe me."
    - cptskippy 5y ago
      Just because someone hasn't tabulated everything into a nice spreadsheet or interactive graph on the NYT doesn't mean people can't form opinions. There's plenty of evidence that law enforcement are covering it up by the continued stone walling and repeated failures to report at all levels.
      - rednerrus 5y ago
        Where is that evidence?
        cptskippy 5y ago
        https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-22-104456.pdf https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-22-104456.pdf
        rednerrus 5y ago
        Did you read this? What is it evidence of?
- nescioquid 5y ago
  Your entire reply to me (sans the first two sentences) would have been a much better reply to the OP because it clearly states your skepticism to the claim but signals you are willing to change your mind given a certain type of evidence. That is something I will always respect. This is much better than your coy ploy, which resulted in an edifying digression into what the quaint term "weasel words" means (though I actually did 'lol' at the realization we're probably of the same generation). Finally, I sincerely apologize because I am sort of picking on you (but really picking on the maneuver) because I am so generally nauseated by what I consider an all-too-frequent conversational rebuttal that results in tedium rather than light shed on the matter. edit: I saw that you were down-voted, so I up-voted you. I think you have a valid point of view (though I may not agree) and I see no reason why anyone should be down-voted for dissension, especially when you lay out clearly what it takes to change your mind.
  - rednerrus 5y ago
    This is an absolutely fair criticism. I see that this reply is better than my first reply. My hope was to shed light on the matter and not get sucked into a tedious argument about what weasel words are. I'm honestly not sure what to believe when it comes to these claims. A lot of the claims that I see seem to be based on what are clearly outliers. I am actually interested in seeing what the numbers look like for use of force. I am interested in how people go about deciding what to believe, especially in this time of misinformation on the internet.

cwkoss 5y ago

Do you not see the circular logic in asking for official data that is evidence of police excessive force on a thread about police failing to share official data of excessive force? Your attitude is exactly what the anti-transparency police unions are trying promote: "No official evidence, so inaction is justified until that's available"

rednerrus 5y ago
I'm asking for any kind of evidence. It doesn't have to be official. There's nothing in what I'm saying that is calling for inaction. I'm asking OP for the evidence they're using to form their argument. Their argument is full of vague words alluding to an epidemic of police violence. If that is the case, show some evidence.
- syki 5y ago
  It has been provided numerous time. A simple web search will give you more links to studies. Do your own research. You’ve spent a lot time not reading the links provided and not doing your own research. Clearly then you have no real interest in the topic.
  - rednerrus 5y ago
    You haven't posted a single piece of evidence for your initial assertions. You continue to post the same studies about increased domestic violence amongst police officers. That is not evidence for your initial statements.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  Googling these names would be a good starting point: https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watching-black-people-die https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watchin... Again, there is no comprehensive official data bout this: hence the reason for this story. Case studies and incomplete data are all we have.
  - 5y ago