4 ms·

> It seems like the vast majority of the world is trying to get in. This is a common trope but only kinda-sorta true. It's definitely true that there is no s

by ska 5y ago

> It seems like the vast majority of the world is trying to get in. This is a common trope but only kinda-sorta true. It's definitely true that there is no sign of mass exodus. Net immigration number remain positive (3% ish) but they are well below historic highs, and currently declining YoY. See e.g. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/net-migration https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/net-... It's interesting I think that per capita Canada (e.g. another "new world" immigration target) has fairly consistently been much higher, and is currently near 2x. The approx 10x population size dwarfs this in total numbers though (https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CAN/canada/net-migration https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CAN/canada/net-migrati...)

rich_sasha 5y ago
The few times I thought about moving to America, the thing that ultimately put me off wasn’t healthcare, guns or food, but the utterly hostile immigration process. It seems that until you get a green card, the state barely tolerates your presence. So nothing to do with the fundamentals, for me anyway.
- dnautics 5y ago
  well, if I'm not mistaken -- the US' immigration process awfulness pales in comparison, to, say the UK. I believe AUS/NZ have inherited similarly complex, kafkaesque systems. I don't know for sure, because I only have experience with the UK's (and failed to get in despite having a PhD AND having a job with money set aside waiting for me); but I have worked side-by-side with H1B holders who said "it was bad but not that bad".
  - CountSessine 5y ago
    The Canadian immigration system, especially if you qualify for the skilled workers program (which most engineers do), is pretty decent overall, and much much better than the awful and outdated US system. I've looked at immigrating to the US and decided it's largely impossible. This largely explains Canada's immigration edge - it certainly isn't societal issues. I'd much sooner have immigrated to the US given the pay and tax differences. I've actually heard good things about the AU system too - apparently Canada considers AU&NZ their biggest competition in attracting immigrants.
    - ska 5y ago
      > it certainly isn't societal issues That seems to be pretty variable; I've met people on both sides of that border that decided against the other one for "societal issues" of various types.
      - CountSessine 5y ago
        If you're poor, Canada is a pretty good deal. If you're middle-class, it's ok. If you're upper-middle-class (top 10% in income) it's better to be in the US.
        ska 5y ago
        > If you're upper-middle-class (top 10% in income) it's better to be in the US. It's not all about income, and it's really as simple as that. IIRC marginal tax rates in some parts of US are higher than some parts of Canada. So, as usual, it depends. On average I don't think you are wrong, btw - but it's hardly cut and dried.
        ska 5y ago
        > "and it's really as simple as that." Probably obvious, but : and it's really not as simple as that.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    Thankfully I never had to navigate (much) the UK process. Sorry to hear about your torments...
  - dzonga 5y ago
    well one positive thing about the UK immigration system after brexit it's now much easier and straighforward. sort of points based. much clearer, no h1b lottery to deal with like you would if you were trying to get in the states.
- CountSessine 5y ago
  It seems that until you get a green card, the state barely tolerates your presence. And good luck even getting to that point. If you have a family, you'll have to live without them for upwards of 10 years while you work alone in the US waiting for your number to come up in the lottery.
throwaway894345 5y ago
I would imagine that the net immigration rate indicates immigration policy of the host country and not the external demand to immigrate, but even if it did indicate that the demand to enter was declining that doesn't refute that the absolute demand is relatively low compared to other countries (Shaq might be getting shorter but that doesn't mean he's short), which is to say that my original claim isn't just "kinda sorta true" but rather, "strictly true".
- ska 5y ago
  > ... and not the external demand to immigrate, It's got to be a mix of both, no? > that my original claim isn't just "kinda sorta true" but rather, "strictly true". I don't think we are really disagreeing. My point was that the common trope about US being the only place everyone wants to go has never really been true, but that especially by net amounts, it has been and remains a popular immigration target, albeit not as much as it has in the past.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > It's got to be a mix of both, no? Not as far as I can tell. The rate of immigration is the lesser of “how many people are willing to migrates the host country” and “how many migrants the host country will accept” and I would be shocked if the latter number was not many multiples of the former number. > My point was that the common trope about US being the only place everyone wants to go has never really been true I’ve heard some outlandish things under the rubric of American exceptionalism, but I’ve never once heard anyone—not even my most nationalistic acquaintances nor Fox News/etc—say that the US was the only place anyone wants to go. Who are the people who believe/espouse this?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - ska 5y ago
      > Not as far as I can tell. It depends a bit if you have absolute quotas, or thresholds/scoring. > some outlandish things under the rubric of American exceptionalism, I was unclear, apologies. The idea isn't that nobody goes anywhere else, obviously. The idea, which I have heard many times in the US, is that once someone has decided to immigrate, all else being equal they would obviously choose the US. Clearly most times all else isn't equal; but it also doesn't seem to be true...
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Pew research estimated ~700 million are interested were the borders to be completely opened.

by ska 5y ago

rich_sasha 5y ago

The few times I thought about moving to America, the thing that ultimately put me off wasn’t healthcare, guns or food, but the utterly hostile immigration process. It seems that until you get a green card, the state barely tolerates your presence. So nothing to do with the fundamentals, for me anyway.

dnautics 5y ago
well, if I'm not mistaken -- the US' immigration process awfulness pales in comparison, to, say the UK. I believe AUS/NZ have inherited similarly complex, kafkaesque systems. I don't know for sure, because I only have experience with the UK's (and failed to get in despite having a PhD AND having a job with money set aside waiting for me); but I have worked side-by-side with H1B holders who said "it was bad but not that bad".
- CountSessine 5y ago
  The Canadian immigration system, especially if you qualify for the skilled workers program (which most engineers do), is pretty decent overall, and much much better than the awful and outdated US system. I've looked at immigrating to the US and decided it's largely impossible. This largely explains Canada's immigration edge - it certainly isn't societal issues. I'd much sooner have immigrated to the US given the pay and tax differences. I've actually heard good things about the AU system too - apparently Canada considers AU&NZ their biggest competition in attracting immigrants.
  - ska 5y ago
    > it certainly isn't societal issues That seems to be pretty variable; I've met people on both sides of that border that decided against the other one for "societal issues" of various types.
    - CountSessine 5y ago
      If you're poor, Canada is a pretty good deal. If you're middle-class, it's ok. If you're upper-middle-class (top 10% in income) it's better to be in the US.
      - ska 5y ago
        > If you're upper-middle-class (top 10% in income) it's better to be in the US. It's not all about income, and it's really as simple as that. IIRC marginal tax rates in some parts of US are higher than some parts of Canada. So, as usual, it depends. On average I don't think you are wrong, btw - but it's hardly cut and dried.
        ska 5y ago
        > "and it's really as simple as that." Probably obvious, but : and it's really not as simple as that.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Thankfully I never had to navigate (much) the UK process. Sorry to hear about your torments...
- dzonga 5y ago
  well one positive thing about the UK immigration system after brexit it's now much easier and straighforward. sort of points based. much clearer, no h1b lottery to deal with like you would if you were trying to get in the states.
CountSessine 5y ago
It seems that until you get a green card, the state barely tolerates your presence. And good luck even getting to that point. If you have a family, you'll have to live without them for upwards of 10 years while you work alone in the US waiting for your number to come up in the lottery.

throwaway894345 5y ago

I would imagine that the net immigration rate indicates immigration policy of the host country and not the external demand to immigrate, but even if it did indicate that the demand to enter was declining that doesn't refute that the absolute demand is relatively low compared to other countries (Shaq might be getting shorter but that doesn't mean he's short), which is to say that my original claim isn't just "kinda sorta true" but rather, "strictly true".

ska 5y ago
> ... and not the external demand to immigrate, It's got to be a mix of both, no? > that my original claim isn't just "kinda sorta true" but rather, "strictly true". I don't think we are really disagreeing. My point was that the common trope about US being the only place everyone wants to go has never really been true, but that especially by net amounts, it has been and remains a popular immigration target, albeit not as much as it has in the past.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > It's got to be a mix of both, no? Not as far as I can tell. The rate of immigration is the lesser of “how many people are willing to migrates the host country” and “how many migrants the host country will accept” and I would be shocked if the latter number was not many multiples of the former number. > My point was that the common trope about US being the only place everyone wants to go has never really been true I’ve heard some outlandish things under the rubric of American exceptionalism, but I’ve never once heard anyone—not even my most nationalistic acquaintances nor Fox News/etc—say that the US was the only place anyone wants to go. Who are the people who believe/espouse this?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ska 5y ago
    > Not as far as I can tell. It depends a bit if you have absolute quotas, or thresholds/scoring. > some outlandish things under the rubric of American exceptionalism, I was unclear, apologies. The idea isn't that nobody goes anywhere else, obviously. The idea, which I have heard many times in the US, is that once someone has decided to immigrate, all else being equal they would obviously choose the US. Clearly most times all else isn't equal; but it also doesn't seem to be true...

mensetmanusman 5y ago

Pew research estimated ~700 million are interested were the borders to be completely opened.