5 ms·

More people have moved up and out of the middle class, than down and out. I'd argue taxes and the bloat in industries such as education, healthcare, and real e

More people have moved up and out of the middle class, than down and out. I'd argue taxes and the bloat in industries such as education, healthcare, and real estate are the driving causes -- all heavily regulated and subsidized by the government.

ido 5y ago
Aren't taxes lower than they used to be?
- tharne 5y ago
  Only at the federal level, which is not the majority of taxes for most people. State taxes and local property tax are significantly higher than they used to be in most places in the U.S. Other things like sales tax, fees, permits, fines, etc. have all likewise increased substantially.
  - evan_ 5y ago
    but have state and local taxes gone up enough that they've counteracted the drop in federal taxes?
    - tharne 5y ago
      In my case, yes, though obviously that depends on where you live. You can also make the argument that it's better to have low federal taxes and high state and local taxes than to have the reverse, since it's much easier to leave a high tax state or town than it is to immigrate to another country.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    > Only at the federal level, which is not the majority of taxes for most people. You are gonna have to cite some sources for this because my understanding is that total federal taxes is the majority of total taxes, if only by a slim margin.
    - handrous 5y ago
      My guess, without looking at the data, would be that this is one of those things that's true if you don't count FICA (i.e. Social Security + Medicare) as a tax, but false if you do count those as taxes.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
are you really blaming healthcare bloat on the government and not the colossal for-profit industry that the vast majority of healthcare is funneled through?
- etchalon 5y ago
  It's a fairly standard argument, that makes absolutely no sense.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  They go hand in hand. Ever heard of "regulatory capture"? The government is very involved in restricting the supply side of healthcare.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    Oh sure, but when people blame "the government" it's usually a thinly veiled suggestion that "less government" is the solution. The money that pushes this regulatory capture comes largely from health insurance companies, which might be the most vile industry I'm obligated to interact with on a regular basis. This is an industry that for a long period of time would refuse to cover health conditions simply because you were born with them.
- CountSessine 5y ago
  The US healthcare system has just enough private ownership to allow private interests to profit from it, just enough public involvement to get taxpayers to pay for it, and just enough regulation in the right places to conceal who pays for treatment and to disconnect incentives. Go all public and expand Medicare and move to a single-payer system like Canada and the UK. Or go all private by killing Medicare altogether, fixing Medicaid as a public backstop, and heavily regulating pricing and doctors' salaries and insurance premiums like Germany and Switzerland. But anything is more humane than the weird mix the US has come up with.
goodpoint 5y ago
> More people have moved up and out of the middle class, than down and out Citation needed.
- marcusverus 5y ago
  In 1971 the middle class made up 61% of the population. By 2016 the number had declined to 52%. Of the 9% who left the middle class, 5% rose into the 'upper class', while 4% fell into the lower. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/the-american-middle-class-is-stable-in-size-but-losing-ground-financially-to-upper-income-families/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/the-america...

ido 5y ago

Aren't taxes lower than they used to be?

tharne 5y ago
Only at the federal level, which is not the majority of taxes for most people. State taxes and local property tax are significantly higher than they used to be in most places in the U.S. Other things like sales tax, fees, permits, fines, etc. have all likewise increased substantially.
- evan_ 5y ago
  but have state and local taxes gone up enough that they've counteracted the drop in federal taxes?
  - tharne 5y ago
    In my case, yes, though obviously that depends on where you live. You can also make the argument that it's better to have low federal taxes and high state and local taxes than to have the reverse, since it's much easier to leave a high tax state or town than it is to immigrate to another country.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  > Only at the federal level, which is not the majority of taxes for most people. You are gonna have to cite some sources for this because my understanding is that total federal taxes is the majority of total taxes, if only by a slim margin.
  - handrous 5y ago
    My guess, without looking at the data, would be that this is one of those things that's true if you don't count FICA (i.e. Social Security + Medicare) as a tax, but false if you do count those as taxes.

micromacrofoot 5y ago

are you really blaming healthcare bloat on the government and not the colossal for-profit industry that the vast majority of healthcare is funneled through?

etchalon 5y ago
It's a fairly standard argument, that makes absolutely no sense.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
They go hand in hand. Ever heard of "regulatory capture"? The government is very involved in restricting the supply side of healthcare.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  Oh sure, but when people blame "the government" it's usually a thinly veiled suggestion that "less government" is the solution. The money that pushes this regulatory capture comes largely from health insurance companies, which might be the most vile industry I'm obligated to interact with on a regular basis. This is an industry that for a long period of time would refuse to cover health conditions simply because you were born with them.
CountSessine 5y ago
The US healthcare system has just enough private ownership to allow private interests to profit from it, just enough public involvement to get taxpayers to pay for it, and just enough regulation in the right places to conceal who pays for treatment and to disconnect incentives. Go all public and expand Medicare and move to a single-payer system like Canada and the UK. Or go all private by killing Medicare altogether, fixing Medicaid as a public backstop, and heavily regulating pricing and doctors' salaries and insurance premiums like Germany and Switzerland. But anything is more humane than the weird mix the US has come up with.

goodpoint 5y ago

> More people have moved up and out of the middle class, than down and out Citation needed.

marcusverus 5y ago
In 1971 the middle class made up 61% of the population. By 2016 the number had declined to 52%. Of the 9% who left the middle class, 5% rose into the 'upper class', while 4% fell into the lower. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/the-american-middle-class-is-stable-in-size-but-losing-ground-financially-to-upper-income-families/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/the-america...