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It isn't helpful to pretend that the LAPD and NYPD are somehow the fault of conservatives. The fact is the largest police forces which receive the most criticis

It isn't helpful to pretend that the LAPD and NYPD are somehow the fault of conservatives. The fact is the largest police forces which receive the most criticism are mostly free of conservative input into how they are ran.

etchalon 5y ago
You should probably look up the people in charge of the police unions in those cities (Chicago too) before making that statement.
- merpnderp 5y ago
  Okay, conservatives control the unions. That's what you're going with? And also the unions are more powerful than the legislature. Alternative hypothesis. The executive and legislative branches of government in these areas have completely screwed up law enforcement over the last few years but successfully ran a scapegoat campaign to blame the police.
  - etchalon 5y ago
    The unions are absolutely more powerful than the executive. That's true of basically every government union. Teacher, cops, road workers, etc. Not just functionally, but politically. Your hypothesis would have to be based on some type of facts. HOW did those branches screw up policing? What policies did they enact that changed the shape of policing in their cities, and how did those changes "screw things up". Keeping in mind that crime rates, even today, are at historic lows.
throwawaygh 5y ago
Conservatives control those police departments even though conservatives have effectively no power over the civilian government in those cities. Just look at the outcomes of union leadership elections. The difficulty of effective civilian oversight over police departments is basically the root cause of all policing problems in America. Large cities would probably be well-served by copying the US constitution's solution to this problem by making the Mayor also the Chief of Police (or something similar). After all, NYC/LA are larger than the US was in 1776, and, in terms of size, those PDs are the same order of magnitude as the Continental Army.
- webmaven 5y ago
  > Large cities would probably be well-served by copying the US constitution's solution to this problem by making the Mayor also the Chief of Police (or something similar). After all, NYC/LA are larger than the US was in 1776, and, in terms of size, those PDs are the same order of magnitude as the Continental Army. An interesting approach that I haven't come across before. Do you know of any legal/constitutional/poli-sci analyses of this solution for cities or greater-metropolitan-areas?
- merpnderp 5y ago
  What do you even mean by control? The legislature makes the laws the and the mayor often appoints the police commissioner. Just because the job often appeals to conservatives doesn't mean they get to set policy, law, and not get fired if they piss off the mayor or city government.
NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
If you think city government "runs" the police forces in large cities, you may not be paying full attention. I invite you to look at what happened when, in late 2014, Bill de Blasio went on the record with the observation that he told his biracial son to be careful around the police. Two police officers were killed (in completely unrelated circumstances) shortly afterwards, and the NYPD patrolman's union representative declared that the mayor "had blood on his hands". Subsequently, police officers at the funeral turned their back to the mayor and a massive bout of the "blue flu" affected the city, with arrests down 90% vs the previous year over the holiday period and into the new year. Police unions also donate millions of dollars to state political candidates in order to diffuse oversight responsibilities of the NYPD.
- ROARosen 5y ago
  Side Note: Both chambers of NY State government as well as the Governorship were in Democratic hands then.
  - fredophile 5y ago
    I don't recall the exact dates those events took place but the New York state senate was not in democratic hands in 2014. Republicans won the majority in the 2014 general election. Prior to that, the IDC worked with the republicans and that coalition had control. Even if democrats had been in control at the time what difference would that make? The GP was pointing out the police union and NYPD actively being against the people in civilian oversight roles.
- merpnderp 5y ago
  Conservatives control the unions. Got it. Totally believable.
  - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
    There are three major police unions in New York City. The Police Benevolent Association (which represents line officers), the Detectives' Endowment Association (detectives) and the Sergeants Benevolent Association (supervisory officers). In 2020, the leader of the New York City Police Benevolent Association, Patrick Lynch, endorsed Trump in the presidential election, and appeared at the Republic National Convention to support him. The Sergeants Benevolent Association also endorsed Trump; their leader at the time, Ed Mullins, appeared in an interview on Fox News with a QAnon mug, but has since left the position after his home was raided by the FBI. Prior to that, he was docked vacation time after he tweeted a screenshot of confidential police records concerning the mayor's daughter. The Detectives' Endowment Association endorsed ... please attempt to suppress your surprise ... Trump as well. In short: if your perspective is that police unions are run by liberals simply because they're unions, you are not paying attention to the facts.

etchalon 5y ago

You should probably look up the people in charge of the police unions in those cities (Chicago too) before making that statement.

merpnderp 5y ago
Okay, conservatives control the unions. That's what you're going with? And also the unions are more powerful than the legislature. Alternative hypothesis. The executive and legislative branches of government in these areas have completely screwed up law enforcement over the last few years but successfully ran a scapegoat campaign to blame the police.
- etchalon 5y ago
  The unions are absolutely more powerful than the executive. That's true of basically every government union. Teacher, cops, road workers, etc. Not just functionally, but politically. Your hypothesis would have to be based on some type of facts. HOW did those branches screw up policing? What policies did they enact that changed the shape of policing in their cities, and how did those changes "screw things up". Keeping in mind that crime rates, even today, are at historic lows.

throwawaygh 5y ago

Conservatives control those police departments even though conservatives have effectively no power over the civilian government in those cities. Just look at the outcomes of union leadership elections. The difficulty of effective civilian oversight over police departments is basically the root cause of all policing problems in America. Large cities would probably be well-served by copying the US constitution's solution to this problem by making the Mayor also the Chief of Police (or something similar). After all, NYC/LA are larger than the US was in 1776, and, in terms of size, those PDs are the same order of magnitude as the Continental Army.

webmaven 5y ago
> Large cities would probably be well-served by copying the US constitution's solution to this problem by making the Mayor also the Chief of Police (or something similar). After all, NYC/LA are larger than the US was in 1776, and, in terms of size, those PDs are the same order of magnitude as the Continental Army. An interesting approach that I haven't come across before. Do you know of any legal/constitutional/poli-sci analyses of this solution for cities or greater-metropolitan-areas?
merpnderp 5y ago
What do you even mean by control? The legislature makes the laws the and the mayor often appoints the police commissioner. Just because the job often appeals to conservatives doesn't mean they get to set policy, law, and not get fired if they piss off the mayor or city government.

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago

If you think city government "runs" the police forces in large cities, you may not be paying full attention. I invite you to look at what happened when, in late 2014, Bill de Blasio went on the record with the observation that he told his biracial son to be careful around the police. Two police officers were killed (in completely unrelated circumstances) shortly afterwards, and the NYPD patrolman's union representative declared that the mayor "had blood on his hands". Subsequently, police officers at the funeral turned their back to the mayor and a massive bout of the "blue flu" affected the city, with arrests down 90% vs the previous year over the holiday period and into the new year. Police unions also donate millions of dollars to state political candidates in order to diffuse oversight responsibilities of the NYPD.

ROARosen 5y ago
Side Note: Both chambers of NY State government as well as the Governorship were in Democratic hands then.
- fredophile 5y ago
  I don't recall the exact dates those events took place but the New York state senate was not in democratic hands in 2014. Republicans won the majority in the 2014 general election. Prior to that, the IDC worked with the republicans and that coalition had control. Even if democrats had been in control at the time what difference would that make? The GP was pointing out the police union and NYPD actively being against the people in civilian oversight roles.
merpnderp 5y ago
Conservatives control the unions. Got it. Totally believable.
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  There are three major police unions in New York City. The Police Benevolent Association (which represents line officers), the Detectives' Endowment Association (detectives) and the Sergeants Benevolent Association (supervisory officers). In 2020, the leader of the New York City Police Benevolent Association, Patrick Lynch, endorsed Trump in the presidential election, and appeared at the Republic National Convention to support him. The Sergeants Benevolent Association also endorsed Trump; their leader at the time, Ed Mullins, appeared in an interview on Fox News with a QAnon mug, but has since left the position after his home was raided by the FBI. Prior to that, he was docked vacation time after he tweeted a screenshot of confidential police records concerning the mayor's daughter. The Detectives' Endowment Association endorsed ... please attempt to suppress your surprise ... Trump as well. In short: if your perspective is that police unions are run by liberals simply because they're unions, you are not paying attention to the facts.