5 ms·

Neither is it helpful to pretend that there isn't a clear political divide in support for the police.

nightski 5y ago
So far I'm not convinced there is other than the one manufactured in the media. Far left attempts at revamping police have largely failed from what I have seen (ex. Minneapolis, which is a rather left leaning city). But I'd love to see actual evidence to the contrary. As in cases where police defunding/change has actually been voted in/implemented in the U.S.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  Defund the police is a loser of a political campaign and really does not make sense. Democrats are targeting the far left with that and losing the middle. What makes sense is reducing the power of police unions to essentially negotiate police powers and an increase of independent police oversight and use of force investigations. Mandate body cameras, and force them to release them promptly via public information requests, no exceptions. Get rid of qualified immunity. Edit: With that said I am pro police and think they perform a vital role in society. They do a job very few people want to and deal with the worst of us. I just don't want them to have immunity from the very laws they are supposed to enforce.
  - crooked-v 5y ago
    "Defund the police" is a far-left position that people tried (and failed) to get Democrats as a whole to accept. I find it weird that people keep getting the cause-and-effect there backwards.
- what_is_orcas 5y ago
  Leftist ideas don't get very far in US politics because our "left" party is pretty centrist. Every time something "socialist" gets passed (like the ACA), it's super watered-down by folks from both parties and often stripped of key provisions (as is the case with the ACA) that made it at least somewhat workable. If anywhere did defund the police, aside from police tactics to prevent that (see my other post in this conversation), it would only work if the social services were stepped-up to work toward crime-prevention (instead of crime-punishment, which is what police do), which isn't generally talked about in conjunction with defunding the police because "defund the police and replace it with a not-racist crime-prevention strategy involving community and social engagement and support" doesn't roll of the tongue.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    Did the Heritage Foundation Invent ObamaCare? https://www.huffpost.com/entry/did-the-heritage-foundati_b_551804 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/did-the-heritage-foundati_b_5...
    - what_is_orcas 5y ago
      That's interesting, but what does it have to do with what I commented above? That comment got a few downvotes, and I don't really understand the connection between what I said and this article, but that usually means I'm not understanding something. If you could clarify, I'd really appreciate that.
prepend 5y ago
I don’t think there’s a meaningful divide in “support for the police.” Maybe in pro police stickers and social media posts, but if you look at legislation and policy I think there’s clear support of police from the current party in power as well as the previous.
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  There's absolutely a meaningful divide along party-political lines on confidence in the police and belief that they are doing a good job in protecting the population from crime. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/13/republicans-more-likely-than-democrats-to-have-confidence-in-police/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/13/republicans...
  - user3939382 5y ago
    I think the divide is PR to shepherd people into the Democratic party https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-squad-enables-pelosis-massive https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-squad-enables-pelosis-m...
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    In voters, but not in their political representatives, who are pretty unanimous.
  - what_is_orcas 5y ago
    James Carville said, on PBS News Hour, that defunding the police was a losing strategy, which effectively told the voters where the establishment (even the left-leaning establishment) stands. US politics are conservative. The "left" is middling-at-best. There's also the concern of how police react to the "defund" movement. There have been a ton of accusations that the police slow down on purpose when their budgets get threatened because an increase in visible "crime" (in quotes because I don't think homelessness should be criminalized, but seems to be the underlying factor of a lot of what gets called crime near where I live) gets all sorts of people to call for an increase in funding.
  - prepend 5y ago
merpnderp 5y ago
It isn't helpful to pretend that the LAPD and NYPD are somehow the fault of conservatives. The fact is the largest police forces which receive the most criticism are mostly free of conservative input into how they are ran.
- etchalon 5y ago
  You should probably look up the people in charge of the police unions in those cities (Chicago too) before making that statement.
  - merpnderp 5y ago
    Okay, conservatives control the unions. That's what you're going with? And also the unions are more powerful than the legislature. Alternative hypothesis. The executive and legislative branches of government in these areas have completely screwed up law enforcement over the last few years but successfully ran a scapegoat campaign to blame the police.
    - etchalon 5y ago
      The unions are absolutely more powerful than the executive. That's true of basically every government union. Teacher, cops, road workers, etc. Not just functionally, but politically. Your hypothesis would have to be based on some type of facts. HOW did those branches screw up policing? What policies did they enact that changed the shape of policing in their cities, and how did those changes "screw things up". Keeping in mind that crime rates, even today, are at historic lows.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  Conservatives control those police departments even though conservatives have effectively no power over the civilian government in those cities. Just look at the outcomes of union leadership elections. The difficulty of effective civilian oversight over police departments is basically the root cause of all policing problems in America. Large cities would probably be well-served by copying the US constitution's solution to this problem by making the Mayor also the Chief of Police (or something similar). After all, NYC/LA are larger than the US was in 1776, and, in terms of size, those PDs are the same order of magnitude as the Continental Army.
Manuel_D 5y ago
Not really, support for reducing police is actually quite small among both liberals and conservatives. Only 25% of liberals want to reduce police in the US [1]. 34% want more police and 40% don't want either more or less. 1. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/10/26/growing-share-of-americans-say-they-want-more-spending-on-police-in-their-area/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/10/26/growing-sha...
lenkite 5y ago
Pretty much both left and right support the police. Only some extremists don't. All those cities that defunded in the police in enthusiasm are busy refunding the police today.

So far I'm not convinced there is other than the one manufactured in the media. Far left attempts at revamping police have largely failed from what I have seen (ex. Minneapolis, which is a rather left leaning city). But I'd love to see actual evidence to the contrary. As in cases where police defunding/change has actually been voted in/implemented in the U.S.

wonderwonder 5y ago
Defund the police is a loser of a political campaign and really does not make sense. Democrats are targeting the far left with that and losing the middle. What makes sense is reducing the power of police unions to essentially negotiate police powers and an increase of independent police oversight and use of force investigations. Mandate body cameras, and force them to release them promptly via public information requests, no exceptions. Get rid of qualified immunity. Edit: With that said I am pro police and think they perform a vital role in society. They do a job very few people want to and deal with the worst of us. I just don't want them to have immunity from the very laws they are supposed to enforce.
- crooked-v 5y ago
  "Defund the police" is a far-left position that people tried (and failed) to get Democrats as a whole to accept. I find it weird that people keep getting the cause-and-effect there backwards.
what_is_orcas 5y ago
Leftist ideas don't get very far in US politics because our "left" party is pretty centrist. Every time something "socialist" gets passed (like the ACA), it's super watered-down by folks from both parties and often stripped of key provisions (as is the case with the ACA) that made it at least somewhat workable. If anywhere did defund the police, aside from police tactics to prevent that (see my other post in this conversation), it would only work if the social services were stepped-up to work toward crime-prevention (instead of crime-punishment, which is what police do), which isn't generally talked about in conjunction with defunding the police because "defund the police and replace it with a not-racist crime-prevention strategy involving community and social engagement and support" doesn't roll of the tongue.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Did the Heritage Foundation Invent ObamaCare? https://www.huffpost.com/entry/did-the-heritage-foundati_b_551804 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/did-the-heritage-foundati_b_5...
  - what_is_orcas 5y ago
    That's interesting, but what does it have to do with what I commented above? That comment got a few downvotes, and I don't really understand the connection between what I said and this article, but that usually means I'm not understanding something. If you could clarify, I'd really appreciate that.

prepend 5y ago

I don’t think there’s a meaningful divide in “support for the police.” Maybe in pro police stickers and social media posts, but if you look at legislation and policy I think there’s clear support of police from the current party in power as well as the previous.

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
There's absolutely a meaningful divide along party-political lines on confidence in the police and belief that they are doing a good job in protecting the population from crime. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/13/republicans-more-likely-than-democrats-to-have-confidence-in-police/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/13/republicans...
- user3939382 5y ago
  I think the divide is PR to shepherd people into the Democratic party https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-squad-enables-pelosis-massive https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-squad-enables-pelosis-m...
- pessimizer 5y ago
  In voters, but not in their political representatives, who are pretty unanimous.
- what_is_orcas 5y ago
  James Carville said, on PBS News Hour, that defunding the police was a losing strategy, which effectively told the voters where the establishment (even the left-leaning establishment) stands. US politics are conservative. The "left" is middling-at-best. There's also the concern of how police react to the "defund" movement. There have been a ton of accusations that the police slow down on purpose when their budgets get threatened because an increase in visible "crime" (in quotes because I don't think homelessness should be criminalized, but seems to be the underlying factor of a lot of what gets called crime near where I live) gets all sorts of people to call for an increase in funding.
- prepend 5y ago

merpnderp 5y ago

It isn't helpful to pretend that the LAPD and NYPD are somehow the fault of conservatives. The fact is the largest police forces which receive the most criticism are mostly free of conservative input into how they are ran.

etchalon 5y ago
You should probably look up the people in charge of the police unions in those cities (Chicago too) before making that statement.
- merpnderp 5y ago
  Okay, conservatives control the unions. That's what you're going with? And also the unions are more powerful than the legislature. Alternative hypothesis. The executive and legislative branches of government in these areas have completely screwed up law enforcement over the last few years but successfully ran a scapegoat campaign to blame the police.
  - etchalon 5y ago
    The unions are absolutely more powerful than the executive. That's true of basically every government union. Teacher, cops, road workers, etc. Not just functionally, but politically. Your hypothesis would have to be based on some type of facts. HOW did those branches screw up policing? What policies did they enact that changed the shape of policing in their cities, and how did those changes "screw things up". Keeping in mind that crime rates, even today, are at historic lows.
throwawaygh 5y ago
Conservatives control those police departments even though conservatives have effectively no power over the civilian government in those cities. Just look at the outcomes of union leadership elections. The difficulty of effective civilian oversight over police departments is basically the root cause of all policing problems in America. Large cities would probably be well-served by copying the US constitution's solution to this problem by making the Mayor also the Chief of Police (or something similar). After all, NYC/LA are larger than the US was in 1776, and, in terms of size, those PDs are the same order of magnitude as the Continental Army.

Manuel_D 5y ago

Not really, support for reducing police is actually quite small among both liberals and conservatives. Only 25% of liberals want to reduce police in the US [1]. 34% want more police and 40% don't want either more or less. 1. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/10/26/growing-share-of-americans-say-they-want-more-spending-on-police-in-their-area/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/10/26/growing-sha...

lenkite 5y ago

Pretty much both left and right support the police. Only some extremists don't. All those cities that defunded in the police in enthusiasm are busy refunding the police today.