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> Americans widely believe the myth that they are free. It’s weird. You aren’t free if you can’t safely exercise your rights to police officers. By more meanin

> Americans widely believe the myth that they are free. It’s weird. You aren’t free if you can’t safely exercise your rights to police officers. By more meaningful measurements, Americans enjoy quite a lot of freedom. By your definition, essentially nobody in the world does.

i5heu 5y ago
There are indeed Nations that are a "Rechtsstaat" or a "state of law". Also you don't need to compare something to the worst of the same category. This is easy and lazy. Compare things to something better, or there is no progress.
- bakuninsbart 5y ago
  Since you use the german word of Rechtsstaat, let me just say that Germany has major problems with power abuse among the police as well. As a white middle-class person, I only experienced it once myself, but it is what my immigrant friends consistently tell me, and I do tend to believe them. A major difference between the US and Germany is that this abuse is far less deadly usually. A rage-inducing example in recent years was the case of Sven W., who was beaten, abused and insulted by police for being gay. After complaining, he was then dragged in front of the court as the accused by the local DA multiple times. (https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308 https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308)
  - syki 5y ago
    Therein is the main difference between Western European police and American police. Our police can kill for the most part without repercussions. Also our prison system is more barbaric. We don’t have universal healthcare so even the act of healing from police violence can cost money.
  - i5heu 5y ago
    I have used the German word because it is used in the English Wikipedia. Germany has a lot of problems and is in Not a „Rechtsstaat“. Germany is not, for example, allowed to file an arrest warrant on the EU layer because the „Staatsanwaltschaft“ (the people who can file it) are assumed under politicians - directly.
syki 5y ago
In my experience Americans largely are ignorant about the rest of the world. I believe most Americans think the U.S. is the freest country in the world. It’s a myth. It is this myth that question. I don’t question that we are freer than many counties. I grew up in an American colony in Panama called the Canal Zone. I remember when my home town was given to Panama and we were patrolled by Panamanian police. During the Noriega troubles the police were openly hostile to Americans. I remember what it was like to deal with Panamanian police. My attitude with dealing with police in the U.S. is essentially the same as it was when dealing with the police of a dictatorship.
theturtletalks 5y ago
This is like saying other people are suffering more than you so your suffering is moot. Let's not tolerate injustices just because others have it worse.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  No it's not. It's pointing out the absurdity of saying that people aren't free because police can arrest, and in the cas of violent offenders, kill people. If that's the case then nobody is really free. Every country has a police force that has authority to use lethal force. Of course somebody in North Korea is less free than somebody living in the US. And of course it doesn't mean that we shouldn't address those cases where the police use force without just cause.
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    >It's pointing out the absurdity of saying that people aren't free because police can arrest, and in the cas of violent offenders, kill people I like how you had to add "in the case of violent offenders", even though the GP was talking about peaceful Americans excercising rights. Was Daniel Shaver a violent offender? What about Philando Castile? No, in other countries, police do not act like a cartel, and yes they are in-fact more free.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      > Was Daniel Shaver a violent offender? He was pointing a rifle out of the window of his hotel room which caused people to dial 911. The police are going into this situation with the belief that Shaver is armed. The police shot him after he reached for his waistband after being told to keep his hands up. > What about Philando Castile? The officer was charged and prosecuted, and the jury found him not guilty. What more do you want done? Kidnap the officer and imprison him extrajudicially? Police do get charged when they kill people without a credible threat presented to them. The conviction of Derek Chauvin presents a clear example of this. You listed two examples of people who probably would still be alive with better police, out of the thousand or so people killed by police each year. The overwhelming majority of people killed by police are presenting clear danger. The instances to the contrary are noteworthy because they aren't the norm.

i5heu 5y ago

There are indeed Nations that are a "Rechtsstaat" or a "state of law". Also you don't need to compare something to the worst of the same category. This is easy and lazy. Compare things to something better, or there is no progress.

bakuninsbart 5y ago
Since you use the german word of Rechtsstaat, let me just say that Germany has major problems with power abuse among the police as well. As a white middle-class person, I only experienced it once myself, but it is what my immigrant friends consistently tell me, and I do tend to believe them. A major difference between the US and Germany is that this abuse is far less deadly usually. A rage-inducing example in recent years was the case of Sven W., who was beaten, abused and insulted by police for being gay. After complaining, he was then dragged in front of the court as the accused by the local DA multiple times. (https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308 https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=39308)
- syki 5y ago
  Therein is the main difference between Western European police and American police. Our police can kill for the most part without repercussions. Also our prison system is more barbaric. We don’t have universal healthcare so even the act of healing from police violence can cost money.
- i5heu 5y ago
  I have used the German word because it is used in the English Wikipedia. Germany has a lot of problems and is in Not a „Rechtsstaat“. Germany is not, for example, allowed to file an arrest warrant on the EU layer because the „Staatsanwaltschaft“ (the people who can file it) are assumed under politicians - directly.

syki 5y ago

In my experience Americans largely are ignorant about the rest of the world. I believe most Americans think the U.S. is the freest country in the world. It’s a myth. It is this myth that question. I don’t question that we are freer than many counties. I grew up in an American colony in Panama called the Canal Zone. I remember when my home town was given to Panama and we were patrolled by Panamanian police. During the Noriega troubles the police were openly hostile to Americans. I remember what it was like to deal with Panamanian police. My attitude with dealing with police in the U.S. is essentially the same as it was when dealing with the police of a dictatorship.

theturtletalks 5y ago

This is like saying other people are suffering more than you so your suffering is moot. Let's not tolerate injustices just because others have it worse.

Manuel_D 5y ago
No it's not. It's pointing out the absurdity of saying that people aren't free because police can arrest, and in the cas of violent offenders, kill people. If that's the case then nobody is really free. Every country has a police force that has authority to use lethal force. Of course somebody in North Korea is less free than somebody living in the US. And of course it doesn't mean that we shouldn't address those cases where the police use force without just cause.
- nemothekid 5y ago
  >It's pointing out the absurdity of saying that people aren't free because police can arrest, and in the cas of violent offenders, kill people I like how you had to add "in the case of violent offenders", even though the GP was talking about peaceful Americans excercising rights. Was Daniel Shaver a violent offender? What about Philando Castile? No, in other countries, police do not act like a cartel, and yes they are in-fact more free.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    > Was Daniel Shaver a violent offender? He was pointing a rifle out of the window of his hotel room which caused people to dial 911. The police are going into this situation with the belief that Shaver is armed. The police shot him after he reached for his waistband after being told to keep his hands up. > What about Philando Castile? The officer was charged and prosecuted, and the jury found him not guilty. What more do you want done? Kidnap the officer and imprison him extrajudicially? Police do get charged when they kill people without a credible threat presented to them. The conviction of Derek Chauvin presents a clear example of this. You listed two examples of people who probably would still be alive with better police, out of the thousand or so people killed by police each year. The overwhelming majority of people killed by police are presenting clear danger. The instances to the contrary are noteworthy because they aren't the norm.