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An 'us vs them' narrative between citizens and government is really really unhealthy. We are all on the same team after all. It is completely reasonable to do t

An 'us vs them' narrative between citizens and government is really really unhealthy. We are all on the same team after all. It is completely reasonable to do the vast majority of, if not all, police work without being untrustworthy and unaccountable. The US Government is based on checks and balances - accountability.

NoGravitas 5y ago
> We are all on the same team after all. We're really, really not. Read up on the history of policing (in particular, in the UK and the US), come back to me, and then try to say that with a straight face. A good source (ignore the inflammatory title and focus on the quality of references) is "Our Enemies in Blue: Police and Power in America" by Kristian Williams.
- annoyingnoob 5y ago
  I'm talking about policing in the US. I'm talking about US citizens all being on the same team as US citizens. I don't and won't trust the police, but it does not have to be that way and the problem is not on my side. I get it, but unless you are talking about civil war we really are on the same team, and theoretically live under the same laws - I get that isn't always the case in practice. Again, does not have to be this way.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> An 'us vs them' narrative between citizens and government is really really unhealthy. Yes, and when we eliminate it from the portion of government responsible for law enforcement by destroying the toxic culture of policing in this country (founded largely in various strains of racism), we can then relax it on the public side. But even more unhealthy than mutual hostility is when the the armed agents of government have an “us against the them” attitude toward the people, and the people having a submissive, trusting attitude to the armed agents of government.
handrous 5y ago
> We are all on the same team after all. I don't even know what that would look like. I'm not aware of any time in the US when it's been true, certainly.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>We are all on the same team after all We are not. Many on HN are in favor of laws I'd shoot a lot of people to not live under. There are many fundamentally incompatible world views that exist in the US in sufficient number to dictate public policy if concentrated in a jurisdiction. I agree most policing, probably all policing worth doing, can be done with accountability and there is no fundamental reason an us vs them dynamic must exist. However, so long as American society is sufficiently heterogeneous that the people passing the laws, the people in favor of the laws and the people who the laws are being enforced against are often different groups there will be a strong "us vs them" dynamic.

NoGravitas 5y ago

> We are all on the same team after all. We're really, really not. Read up on the history of policing (in particular, in the UK and the US), come back to me, and then try to say that with a straight face. A good source (ignore the inflammatory title and focus on the quality of references) is "Our Enemies in Blue: Police and Power in America" by Kristian Williams.

annoyingnoob 5y ago
I'm talking about policing in the US. I'm talking about US citizens all being on the same team as US citizens. I don't and won't trust the police, but it does not have to be that way and the problem is not on my side. I get it, but unless you are talking about civil war we really are on the same team, and theoretically live under the same laws - I get that isn't always the case in practice. Again, does not have to be this way.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> An 'us vs them' narrative between citizens and government is really really unhealthy. Yes, and when we eliminate it from the portion of government responsible for law enforcement by destroying the toxic culture of policing in this country (founded largely in various strains of racism), we can then relax it on the public side. But even more unhealthy than mutual hostility is when the the armed agents of government have an “us against the them” attitude toward the people, and the people having a submissive, trusting attitude to the armed agents of government.

handrous 5y ago

> We are all on the same team after all. I don't even know what that would look like. I'm not aware of any time in the US when it's been true, certainly.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

>We are all on the same team after all We are not. Many on HN are in favor of laws I'd shoot a lot of people to not live under. There are many fundamentally incompatible world views that exist in the US in sufficient number to dictate public policy if concentrated in a jurisdiction. I agree most policing, probably all policing worth doing, can be done with accountability and there is no fundamental reason an us vs them dynamic must exist. However, so long as American society is sufficiently heterogeneous that the people passing the laws, the people in favor of the laws and the people who the laws are being enforced against are often different groups there will be a strong "us vs them" dynamic.