6 ms·

If the Feds clamp down on this, but not on FSD, then we'll know for sure that we have meme regulators. One of these is marginally worse than having access to a

If the Feds clamp down on this, but not on FSD, then we'll know for sure that we have meme regulators. One of these is marginally worse than having access to a modern smartphone. The other literally drives the car, and has proven repeatedly that it is incapable of performing anywhere near the level required to avoid accidents in the real-world.

shmatt 5y ago
> incapable of performing anywhere near the level required to avoid accidents in the real-world. Humans, as well. 38,000 dead and 4,400,000 injured every year in the US due to car accidents. It would be cool to decide on a framework where FSD is tested/approved to be not perfect but better than the average human
- woeirua 5y ago
  > It would be cool to decide on a framework where FSD is tested/approved to be not perfect but better than the average human Just watch the YouTube videos from beta drivers (which are cherrypicked to be most flattering to Tesla). The number of disengagements in 20 minutes of continuous driving is disheartening.
  - lupire 5y ago
    Disengagements aren't a safety threat. Most cars are permanently disengaged.
- chrinic4948 5y ago
  > Humans, as well. 38,000 dead and 4,400,000 injured every year in the US due to car accidents. Found the Tesla fanboy. Your numbers include drivers aged 15-25, the most dangerous driving group. Yet, Elon compares the Tesla autopilot driving demographic (age 24-35) to the teenager-biased number. It makes Tesla look good.
- ghaff 5y ago
  It doesn't need to be perfect but it needs to be a lot better than the "average" driver which includes intoxicated, fatigued, young, old, etc. drivers in all sorts of weather with many older vehicles with fewer safety systems and possible maintenance issues.
  - can16358p 5y ago
    While I agree with you, it brings the moral/legal dilemma about who is responsible when FSD kills someone. I'd love to see all cars being on FSD and communicating with each other around, dropping deaths (and even minor accidents) to virtually zero though.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      Clearly something that will have to be addressed legally. Outside of (to a certain degree) drugs (and tobacco, which is regulated and known to be harmful) there are very few consumer-facing products which used and maintained properly just randomly kill people sometimes--and we shrug our shoulders and say "stuff happens."
    - JadeNB 5y ago
      > I'd love to see all cars being on FSD and communicating with each other around, dropping deaths (and even minor accidents) to virtually zero though. That sounds like a world that'll be great as long as you're in a car, and terrible if you're a pedestrian or cyclist. Kind of like the world we've got now, except with even more victim blaming.
      - can16358p 5y ago
        It can make everything safer for everyone, both cars and pedestrians. If all cars redundantly detect everything around them, including approaching other vehicles _and_ pedestrians, and relay that data to other nearby vehicles, why would it be a nightmare for pedestrians?
        JadeNB 5y ago
- benjamir 5y ago
  Or the US could introduce sane rules. Like right-hand drive and proper driver licenses. Regards from Germany.
- tbabb 5y ago
  Tesla autopilot use nowhere near competitive with a human driver, no matter what they claim. I'm bullish on self-driving in general, but Tesla's misrepresentation of their self-driving capability has always been just shy of "fraud".
  - fiddlerwoaroof 5y ago
    This is true of surface streets: on freeways, even the older “Autopilot” is pretty good: I’ve driven on-ramp to off-ramp like 60 miles without a disengagement.
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      I've driving a lot farther than 60 miles without disengaging. Many thousands of miles without ever once panic braking for a shadow. Even average drivers die about once every 100 million miles. AP is so far from that it isn't fair to try and compare. And that's just average drivers, which includes drunks, tired people, 16 year olds, weather-related accidents, etc. Put AP or FSD up against a normal, sober driver in decent weather and there's probably five or six orders of magnitude difference in competency.
      - y4mi 5y ago
        and you think 60 miles without disenganging on a freeway means anything? to quote wikipedias statistic from 2012: - the United States had 3.38 road fatalities per 1 billion vehicle-km on its Interstate-type highways, often called freeways.[28] congrats on your 60 miles i guess... only 295 857 928 more miles until your car performs as well as an average human from 2012.
        rootusrootus 5y ago
        Pretty sure you meant to quote the comment I replied to, because it sounds like you agree with me.
        5y ago
- NoGravitas 5y ago
  > Humans, as well. 38,000 dead and 4,400,000 injured every year in the US due to car accidents. Yes. A society that valued both human life and evidence would ban cars entirely.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    A society like that would ban all transportation altogether, public or private.
  - tbrownaw 5y ago
    > A society that valued both human life and evidence would ... hopefully have the sense to evaluate things based on both costs and benefits, and maybe even beyond just the first-order ones.
- AshamedCaptain 5y ago
  > It would be cool to decide on a framework where FSD is tested/approved to be not perfect but better than the average human Even if this was true, there is still the problem that the failure mode of a ML is even less predictable than that of a average human. I.e. only the most intoxicated humans are likely to drive their cars into white walls, but that may happen any day with computer vision on the most well-maintained car, and you may never know what confused it. Or a traffic sign can be defaced in a way that is obviously detectable for a human (up to the point maintenance does not even consider to clean it), but confuses a car in a deadly way. I.e. even if humans fail, at least they fail in ways that are relatable to us humans. The ways "FSD" fail are incomprehensible and exasperating.
- kiba 5y ago
  You could probably reduce car accidents by reducing the number of cars on the road and destroying much of car infrastructure.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ashildr 5y ago
In my country you are not allowed to physically interact with a smartphome while driving. The cars entertainment system is not off limits, yet. This will be a problem.

shmatt 5y ago

> incapable of performing anywhere near the level required to avoid accidents in the real-world. Humans, as well. 38,000 dead and 4,400,000 injured every year in the US due to car accidents. It would be cool to decide on a framework where FSD is tested/approved to be not perfect but better than the average human

woeirua 5y ago
> It would be cool to decide on a framework where FSD is tested/approved to be not perfect but better than the average human Just watch the YouTube videos from beta drivers (which are cherrypicked to be most flattering to Tesla). The number of disengagements in 20 minutes of continuous driving is disheartening.
- lupire 5y ago
  Disengagements aren't a safety threat. Most cars are permanently disengaged.
chrinic4948 5y ago
> Humans, as well. 38,000 dead and 4,400,000 injured every year in the US due to car accidents. Found the Tesla fanboy. Your numbers include drivers aged 15-25, the most dangerous driving group. Yet, Elon compares the Tesla autopilot driving demographic (age 24-35) to the teenager-biased number. It makes Tesla look good.
ghaff 5y ago
It doesn't need to be perfect but it needs to be a lot better than the "average" driver which includes intoxicated, fatigued, young, old, etc. drivers in all sorts of weather with many older vehicles with fewer safety systems and possible maintenance issues.
- can16358p 5y ago
  While I agree with you, it brings the moral/legal dilemma about who is responsible when FSD kills someone. I'd love to see all cars being on FSD and communicating with each other around, dropping deaths (and even minor accidents) to virtually zero though.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Clearly something that will have to be addressed legally. Outside of (to a certain degree) drugs (and tobacco, which is regulated and known to be harmful) there are very few consumer-facing products which used and maintained properly just randomly kill people sometimes--and we shrug our shoulders and say "stuff happens."
  - JadeNB 5y ago
    > I'd love to see all cars being on FSD and communicating with each other around, dropping deaths (and even minor accidents) to virtually zero though. That sounds like a world that'll be great as long as you're in a car, and terrible if you're a pedestrian or cyclist. Kind of like the world we've got now, except with even more victim blaming.
    - can16358p 5y ago
      It can make everything safer for everyone, both cars and pedestrians. If all cars redundantly detect everything around them, including approaching other vehicles _and_ pedestrians, and relay that data to other nearby vehicles, why would it be a nightmare for pedestrians?
      - JadeNB 5y ago
benjamir 5y ago
Or the US could introduce sane rules. Like right-hand drive and proper driver licenses. Regards from Germany.
tbabb 5y ago
Tesla autopilot use nowhere near competitive with a human driver, no matter what they claim. I'm bullish on self-driving in general, but Tesla's misrepresentation of their self-driving capability has always been just shy of "fraud".
- fiddlerwoaroof 5y ago
  This is true of surface streets: on freeways, even the older “Autopilot” is pretty good: I’ve driven on-ramp to off-ramp like 60 miles without a disengagement.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    I've driving a lot farther than 60 miles without disengaging. Many thousands of miles without ever once panic braking for a shadow. Even average drivers die about once every 100 million miles. AP is so far from that it isn't fair to try and compare. And that's just average drivers, which includes drunks, tired people, 16 year olds, weather-related accidents, etc. Put AP or FSD up against a normal, sober driver in decent weather and there's probably five or six orders of magnitude difference in competency.
    - y4mi 5y ago
      and you think 60 miles without disenganging on a freeway means anything? to quote wikipedias statistic from 2012: - the United States had 3.38 road fatalities per 1 billion vehicle-km on its Interstate-type highways, often called freeways.[28] congrats on your 60 miles i guess... only 295 857 928 more miles until your car performs as well as an average human from 2012.
      - rootusrootus 5y ago
        Pretty sure you meant to quote the comment I replied to, because it sounds like you agree with me.
        5y ago
NoGravitas 5y ago
> Humans, as well. 38,000 dead and 4,400,000 injured every year in the US due to car accidents. Yes. A society that valued both human life and evidence would ban cars entirely.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  A society like that would ban all transportation altogether, public or private.
- tbrownaw 5y ago
  > A society that valued both human life and evidence would ... hopefully have the sense to evaluate things based on both costs and benefits, and maybe even beyond just the first-order ones.
AshamedCaptain 5y ago
> It would be cool to decide on a framework where FSD is tested/approved to be not perfect but better than the average human Even if this was true, there is still the problem that the failure mode of a ML is even less predictable than that of a average human. I.e. only the most intoxicated humans are likely to drive their cars into white walls, but that may happen any day with computer vision on the most well-maintained car, and you may never know what confused it. Or a traffic sign can be defaced in a way that is obviously detectable for a human (up to the point maintenance does not even consider to clean it), but confuses a car in a deadly way. I.e. even if humans fail, at least they fail in ways that are relatable to us humans. The ways "FSD" fail are incomprehensible and exasperating.
kiba 5y ago
You could probably reduce car accidents by reducing the number of cars on the road and destroying much of car infrastructure.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ashildr 5y ago

In my country you are not allowed to physically interact with a smartphome while driving. The cars entertainment system is not off limits, yet. This will be a problem.