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The Federal government should exclude these non-cooperating departments from the 1033 program[1] then. I hate it when Democrats just throw up their arms and ac

The Federal government should exclude these non-cooperating departments from the 1033 program[1] then. I hate it when Democrats just throw up their arms and act exasperated; there _is_ a way here. Withhold FBI's cooperation from these departments too then. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/09/why-police-pay-nothing-for-military-equipment.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/09/why-police-pay-nothing-for-m...

technobabbler 5y ago
For decades now the Dems have been lame ducks surrounded by snakes. They have no vision, no popular mandate, and no idea how to use the bully pulpit. They're too busy putting band-aids on an ever-growing cancer to actually do anything anymore. The Republicans have directly attacked every cornerstone of our democratic and electoral systems, from the ballots to the courts to the schools, and have made huge victories all across. The Dems, meanwhile, just keep chugging along pretending like it's still the 90s. No meaningful reform will come from them. Authoritarianism, here we come.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  What are you talking about? From gay rights to trans rights, from abortion to smoking weed. Democrats have gone from victory to victory. If that’s good or bad depends on your point of view.
  - JohnWhigham 5y ago
    abortion In case you haven't noticed, that's about to be overturned. Democrats have gone from victory to victory. Lol, are you sure you're not employed by the DNC? Victory for whom, the American people, or the politicians and their friends?
    - dang 5y ago
      We've already asked you not to post like this (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29000160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29000160). We ban accounts that do this repeatedly, and you've unfortunately been continuing to post ideological flamewar comments and otherwise breaking the site guidelines. That's seriously not cool here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - dang 5y ago
    Please do not take HN threads further into political flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - imwillofficial 5y ago
      Ah, that was not my intention.
- dang 5y ago
  Please do not take HN threads further into political flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    Hi dang, I fear the line between a political "discussion" and "flamewar" here may be quite thin, and not easily distinguished for the layperson. There is not a neat separation between politics and technology/surveillance/policing/violence anymore, and in this day and age remaining apolitical isn't really a possibility for anyone who engages even shallowly with society at large. The tech world has been dragged kicking and screaming into the rest of society, and with it, the messiness of culture and politics and values. There's no going back. This story in particular is inherently about the intersection of technology, culture, and politics, the exact sort of thing any good hacker SHOULD be interested in. Whether it's Stallman, Linus, the EFF, Mozilla, Snowden... there is no such thing as apolitical, value-less technology anymore. What good is code in a bubble? Technology has impacts on society, and society impacts technology. If the goal is to restrain the discussions here to only technologies that have no obvious political connection, the realm of theoretical comp sci as opposed to anything applied or public-facing, well... that's unfortunate, but that's your call. I hope you will reconsider this viewpoint, but I doubt my single voice holds any sway in the grand scheme of things. You and others probably want to prevent this place from becoming like r/worldnews, which I understand, even if I don't completely agree. I don't think I can do what you're asking for -- remain apolitical in the face of political technologies -- without completely sacrificing the spirit of meaningful discussion. Too many of the world's evils are created and maintained by people who just work on technology without thinking of their larger repercussions, and I cannot in good conscience do the same. Anyhow, you're probably sick of hearing stuff like this. I shall refrain from further posting, and return to lurking, and not further disturb your community. Thank you for a fun few months.
    - dang 5y ago
      The approach we take to this is pretty well established on HN. If you want to read about it, here are some links to past explanations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.... > I fear the line between a political "discussion" and "flamewar" here may be quite thin, and not easily distinguished for the layperson. Sure, it's not always obvious, but in the case of your GP comment it was. That comment was clearly on the wrong side of the line. Not a borderline call.
webdoodle 5y ago
Yep, they should also be put on a 'no fly' list that excludes them from any Federal Law Enforcement Grants or Funding, which is a large part of many police dept budgets. For instance, it's how the Federal government enforces speed limits in all 50 states, by only giving highway funding to states that comply.
- toss1 5y ago
  Hell, don't just cut off funding & cooperation for not participating, tax them also - as in if they don't want to participate, the need to pay fees to the FBI, perhaps the amounts related to the costs of FBI staff gathering the same data about them - i.e., either provide the data, or pay to have it provided for you. That should get the attention of a few mayors, town/city councilpersons, if not just the police chiefs noticing the holes in their budget.
krolden 5y ago
Those programs should be stopped entirely whether or not they comply butni also argue that these uncooperative departments should have all federal aid cut off until they comply. Maybe go as far as to cut off any federal funding to that municipality (no idea how much federal money these places get) in order to get them to start doing something about their terrible policing practices.
wayoutthere 5y ago
The problem is that most local PDs would be considered organized crime in any other context (violent gangs and extortion rings within police departments have been well documented). Most don’t want the FBI involvement and are perfectly happy to extort the citizens of their cities for protection.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  I routinely tell anyone that will listen that the US police forces are our most active domestic terrorist organization. People do not want to listen to the truth.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    The police unions could pull a coup off in a day with adequate preparation.
  - wayoutthere 5y ago
    Right; and because they effectively control the legal system, there is zero accountability. Some cops in my area were murdering drug dealers in order to steal their cash and got caught red-handed. They didn’t even lose their jobs, much less go to jail.
javajosh 5y ago
That's a good start. What concerns me is the lack of attention everyday policing problems get. It's an "ignore it and it will go away problem" at best, or it's an "it only applies to the poor, stupid, addicted people who can't control themselves, and have to be treated like animals anyway" non-problem, based on dehumanizing the victims. Somehow we've decided that we don't care about accountable policing, almost certainly because no-one realizes how big of a problem it is, and that happens for a wide variety of reasons (#1 is that if you complain about the police in the US, 95% chance you'll get ignored, and 4% you'll get blamed, 1% chance anyone takes it seriously, and 1 in a 1000 chance anything at all happens.

technobabbler 5y ago

For decades now the Dems have been lame ducks surrounded by snakes. They have no vision, no popular mandate, and no idea how to use the bully pulpit. They're too busy putting band-aids on an ever-growing cancer to actually do anything anymore. The Republicans have directly attacked every cornerstone of our democratic and electoral systems, from the ballots to the courts to the schools, and have made huge victories all across. The Dems, meanwhile, just keep chugging along pretending like it's still the 90s. No meaningful reform will come from them. Authoritarianism, here we come.

imwillofficial 5y ago
What are you talking about? From gay rights to trans rights, from abortion to smoking weed. Democrats have gone from victory to victory. If that’s good or bad depends on your point of view.
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  abortion In case you haven't noticed, that's about to be overturned. Democrats have gone from victory to victory. Lol, are you sure you're not employed by the DNC? Victory for whom, the American people, or the politicians and their friends?
  - dang 5y ago
    We've already asked you not to post like this (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29000160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29000160). We ban accounts that do this repeatedly, and you've unfortunately been continuing to post ideological flamewar comments and otherwise breaking the site guidelines. That's seriously not cool here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- dang 5y ago
  Please do not take HN threads further into political flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    Ah, that was not my intention.
dang 5y ago
Please do not take HN threads further into political flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Hi dang, I fear the line between a political "discussion" and "flamewar" here may be quite thin, and not easily distinguished for the layperson. There is not a neat separation between politics and technology/surveillance/policing/violence anymore, and in this day and age remaining apolitical isn't really a possibility for anyone who engages even shallowly with society at large. The tech world has been dragged kicking and screaming into the rest of society, and with it, the messiness of culture and politics and values. There's no going back. This story in particular is inherently about the intersection of technology, culture, and politics, the exact sort of thing any good hacker SHOULD be interested in. Whether it's Stallman, Linus, the EFF, Mozilla, Snowden... there is no such thing as apolitical, value-less technology anymore. What good is code in a bubble? Technology has impacts on society, and society impacts technology. If the goal is to restrain the discussions here to only technologies that have no obvious political connection, the realm of theoretical comp sci as opposed to anything applied or public-facing, well... that's unfortunate, but that's your call. I hope you will reconsider this viewpoint, but I doubt my single voice holds any sway in the grand scheme of things. You and others probably want to prevent this place from becoming like r/worldnews, which I understand, even if I don't completely agree. I don't think I can do what you're asking for -- remain apolitical in the face of political technologies -- without completely sacrificing the spirit of meaningful discussion. Too many of the world's evils are created and maintained by people who just work on technology without thinking of their larger repercussions, and I cannot in good conscience do the same. Anyhow, you're probably sick of hearing stuff like this. I shall refrain from further posting, and return to lurking, and not further disturb your community. Thank you for a fun few months.
  - dang 5y ago
    The approach we take to this is pretty well established on HN. If you want to read about it, here are some links to past explanations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.... > I fear the line between a political "discussion" and "flamewar" here may be quite thin, and not easily distinguished for the layperson. Sure, it's not always obvious, but in the case of your GP comment it was. That comment was clearly on the wrong side of the line. Not a borderline call.

webdoodle 5y ago

Yep, they should also be put on a 'no fly' list that excludes them from any Federal Law Enforcement Grants or Funding, which is a large part of many police dept budgets. For instance, it's how the Federal government enforces speed limits in all 50 states, by only giving highway funding to states that comply.

toss1 5y ago
Hell, don't just cut off funding & cooperation for not participating, tax them also - as in if they don't want to participate, the need to pay fees to the FBI, perhaps the amounts related to the costs of FBI staff gathering the same data about them - i.e., either provide the data, or pay to have it provided for you. That should get the attention of a few mayors, town/city councilpersons, if not just the police chiefs noticing the holes in their budget.

krolden 5y ago

Those programs should be stopped entirely whether or not they comply butni also argue that these uncooperative departments should have all federal aid cut off until they comply. Maybe go as far as to cut off any federal funding to that municipality (no idea how much federal money these places get) in order to get them to start doing something about their terrible policing practices.

wayoutthere 5y ago

The problem is that most local PDs would be considered organized crime in any other context (violent gangs and extortion rings within police departments have been well documented). Most don’t want the FBI involvement and are perfectly happy to extort the citizens of their cities for protection.

voakbasda 5y ago
I routinely tell anyone that will listen that the US police forces are our most active domestic terrorist organization. People do not want to listen to the truth.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  The police unions could pull a coup off in a day with adequate preparation.
- wayoutthere 5y ago
  Right; and because they effectively control the legal system, there is zero accountability. Some cops in my area were murdering drug dealers in order to steal their cash and got caught red-handed. They didn’t even lose their jobs, much less go to jail.

javajosh 5y ago

That's a good start. What concerns me is the lack of attention everyday policing problems get. It's an "ignore it and it will go away problem" at best, or it's an "it only applies to the poor, stupid, addicted people who can't control themselves, and have to be treated like animals anyway" non-problem, based on dehumanizing the victims. Somehow we've decided that we don't care about accountable policing, almost certainly because no-one realizes how big of a problem it is, and that happens for a wide variety of reasons (#1 is that if you complain about the police in the US, 95% chance you'll get ignored, and 4% you'll get blamed, 1% chance anyone takes it seriously, and 1 in a 1000 chance anything at all happens.