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So we don’t classify jailed and tortured Julian Assange as a journalist even though he broke amongst some of the biggest news stories over the last 20 years. Or

So we don’t classify jailed and tortured Julian Assange as a journalist even though he broke amongst some of the biggest news stories over the last 20 years. Or that the Trump administration planned on assasinating him. Or that Joe Biden is trying to extradite him on trumped up charges (pun not intended). Or the Black TV reporter Bilal Abdul Kareem from Chicago that Obama tried to kill multiple times: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-to-survive-americas-kill-list-699334/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-... https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/sep/27/senior-cia-officials-trump-discussed-assassinating-julian-assange https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/sep/27/senior-cia-off... -

bombcar 5y ago
But we do classify others who wrote a few blog articles as “journalist” when they were/are much more obviously engaged in other activities.
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  We also classify people who are spies, publish fake news or lie all the time as journalists as well. During the Church Committee it got public that the publishers of Time Henry Luce, New York Times’ Sulzberger and so many journalists worked for the CIA: “Among the executives who lent their cooperation to the Agency were Williarn Paley of the Columbia Broadcasting System, Henry Luce of Tirne Inc., Arthur Hays Sulzberger of the New York Times, Barry Bingham Sr. of the LouisviIle Courier‑Journal, and James Copley of the Copley News Service. Other organizations which cooperated with the CIA include the American Broadcasting Company, the National Broadcasting Company, the Associated Press, United Press International, Reuters, Hearst Newspapers, Scripps‑Howard, Newsweek magazine, the Mutual Broadcasting System, the Miami Herald and the old Saturday Evening Post and New York Herald‑Tribune. By far the most valuable of these associations, according to CIA officials, have been with the New York Times, CBS and Time Inc.“ http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hearings/ciasuseofjournal00unit.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hear... https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2015/05/06/40-years-ago-church-committee-investigated-americans-spying-on-americans/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2015/05/06/40-y...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
RansomStark 5y ago
[flagged]
- bvrmn 5y ago
  Russian and Belarus government don't protect their people in any way.
  - RansomStark 5y ago
    I'm sorry but that is a absolute statement, verging on propaganda. Of course they protect their people. For example there is significant crime in Russia, but the Russian government fields a police force that enforces the laws of Russia, jailing murderers, thieves, etc [0]. Of course there is corruption, of course some are above the law (but then is true the world over), and you need to play by the local rules, but that is not an absence of protection, although it may not be on par with what you might expect somewhere else. You also have to remember that the justification for the Russian invasion of Crimea was to protect the minority Russian population living in Crimea. So clearly the idea that the Russian government protects Russians is believed to be true within the state of Russia to the point where that idea can be exploited to justify military expansionism. We really need to get past the 'good guy' / 'bad guy' version of politics, the whole world is a shade of grey. [0] https://www.statista.com/topics/5509/crime-in-russia/#dossierKeyfigures https://www.statista.com/topics/5509/crime-in-russia/#dossie...
    - bvrmn 5y ago
      I'm russian by the way. And we can get arrested for single like in social media. Please don't tell me about propaganda.
      - RansomStark 5y ago
        I've not see anyone in the UK arrested for a like, but there are enough examples of people arrested for a single tweet, or retweet [0][1][2]. [0] https://nypost.com/2021/02/08/man-arrested-for-offensive-sir-captain-tom-moore-tweet/ https://nypost.com/2021/02/08/man-arrested-for-offensive-sir... [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/euro-2020-arrests-police-racism-b1884549.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/euro-2020-arrest... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/arrests-for-offensive-facebook-and-twitter-posts-soar-in-london-a7064246.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/arrests-for-offensive-...
ineedasername 5y ago
Your right about Assange, and the really frustrating thing is that if he was a US citizen and did the exact same thing but published in a traditional media outlet then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. US journalists have received all kinds of awful leaked information and not been subjected to this. Although discussion on assassination? Wow, wasn't aware of that. I'll grant that his organization might have stepped into a gray area (apparently the US witness has credibility issues) if they provided Manning with a bit of guidance on how to get more information (unsuccessfully I think) but I don't think that materially changes things all that much.
- pydry 5y ago
  If Assange did precisely the same thing and exposed Russian or Chinese war crimes the idea that he was justly imprisoned for espionage because of the methods by which he did it would be universally mocked and condemned in the west. Conversely Roman Protasevich's airplane would be downed and he would already be in prison on charges of "fighting on the front line alongside neonazis" (evidence is that he did neonazi azov PR but probably did not fight), while the Russians condemned us for imprisoning a valiant journalist.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    >Roman Protasevich's airplane I don't know, Russia has a long tradition (with the USSR before it) to get creative with assassinations. Everything from poisoning tea with somewhat exotic isotopes to smearing the insides of underwear with neurotoxins, an icepick to the head, or simply gunning someone down in the street.
    - pydry 5y ago
      Not sure i see your point.
      - ineedasername 5y ago
        I wasn't making a rebuttal to the GP, just noting that the Russian government doesn't always go through the trouble of a show trial before conviction. That point shouldn't be taken as me ignoring similar tactics by other world powers, I'm aware of those too. The US planned & tried some creative assassinations against Castro. Realpolitik is messy and cynical and hypocritical.
pydry 5y ago
The absence of assange et al is notable but it's not a bad thing to be campaigning for the release of journalists in other countries.
- enriquto 5y ago
  The conspicuous absence of Assange is indeed very bad for the purported campaign for the release of journalists "in other countries". Such other countries can now rightfully point to the hypocrisy of this campaign. What the CPJ is doing (omitting Assange in its list) is effectively harmful for the journalists jailed in other countries.
  - pydry 5y ago
    Doesn't seem like they've forgotten him https://cpj.org/tags/julianassange/ https://cpj.org/tags/julianassange/ They seem to be fighting his corner, they're just not designating him specifically as a journalist. I think demanding too much moral purity from campaigners is damaging. The perfect is very much the enemy of the good.
sleepysysadmin 5y ago
>So we don’t classify jailed and tortured Julian Assange as a journalist even though he broke amongst some of the biggest news stories over the last 20 years. I do believe he is considered a journalist but he's in prison for multiple reasons. False and retracted sexual assault allegations in Sweden. Which technically had nothing to do with journalism and far more to do with Sweden's considerable problem with rape in their country. Sweden went to the extent that it's rape if you don't have written consent for sex. They also removed all the intent/threats/violence as being part of it as well. Effectively they made sex illegal. >Or that the Trump administration planned on assasinating him. Woah, never heard this before. Trump directly benefitted from assange and even praised him. Though never actually helped him in any way. I believe he kinda disavowed knowing anything about him. I do believe that was a big political mistake by Trump. If Trump gave Assange a pardon... that would have been huge. As for CIA making plans under Trump... clearly didnt happen. > Or that Joe Biden is trying to extradite him on trumped up charges (pun not intended). It is afterall the democrat email servers assange leaked. Biden's going all in for sure. >Or the Black TV reporter Bilal Abdul Kareem from Chicago that Obama tried to kill multiple times: woah, thats another i never heard. nobel peace prize obama took his attention away from his 7 wars to try to kill some journalist from his home city? This seems more like the CIA isn't under control.
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  Glad you noticed the Chicago reference. There are many more such examples. My favorite doublespeak is the fancy name for killing Obama administration used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix
- pell 5y ago
  The following is not so much an attempt at arguing with the poster but to correct falsehoods and blatant misrepresentations in their post. > I do believe he is considered a journalist but he's in prison for multiple reasons. Right now he’s only in prison due to the extradition trial. The reason he isn’t out on bail is because he skipped bail in the past. > Sweden went to the extent that it's rape if you don't have written consent for sex. They also removed all the intent/threats/violence as being part of it as well. Effectively they made sex illegal. This is an incredibly absurd recount of Swedish law. It’s evident you do not know much about it. Swedish law defines rape as sex without consent. This definition was passed in 2018. The accusations against Assange were made in 2010. The conviction rates do not reflect your assumption that sex itself is deemed illegal in Sweden. The charges against Assange were also dropped. By the way, one accusation against him was that he penetrated a woman without a condom while she was sleeping. That is considered rape in most countries around the world. So even if we were to take your incorrect description of Sweden’s rape laws seriously they wouldn’t fit the bill here. > It is afterall the democrat email servers assange leaked. Biden's going all in for sure. The US case against Assanges originated in the Obama era. However his administration decided to not go forward with it. It was Trump’s administration who decided to make the extradition request. Assange was forced out of the Ecuadorian embassy during Trump’s tenure. So this had nothing to do with DNC leaks, nor was this a Democrat endeavor. Whatever one thinks of Assange or his work with Wikileaks, the way he is being treated by the US and the UK is entirely absurd and does not show any signs of fair trial at this point. News outlets in the US have done a poor job at holding the government accountable here. If Assange does get extradited and convicted it will break journalism in the United States fundamentally.
gadders 5y ago
Project Veritas was recently raided by the FBI and had material taken as well.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- long_time_gone 5y ago
  I think this is where the question of "what is a journalist?" comes into play. What legitimate journalism has Project Veritas done? Wikipedia makes them seem more like a political hit squad than legitimate journalists: == Project Veritas unsuccessfully attempted to mislead The Washington Post into publishing false information about the Roy Moore sexual misconduct allegations in 2017; the Post won a Pulitzer Prize after uncovering the operation.== == In 2020, The New York Times published an exposé detailing Project Veritas' use of spies recruited by Erik Prince, to infiltrate "Democratic congressional campaigns, labor organizations and other groups considered hostile to the Trump agenda".== - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Veritas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Veritas - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/politics/erik-prince-project-veritas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/politics/erik-prince-p...
  - gadders 5y ago
    Well Wikipedia and the NYT are hardly unbiassed sources, but for an independent left wing view I suggest you read what Glen Greenwald wrote: "This not-a-real-journalist tactic was and remains the primary theory used by those who justify the ongoing attempt to imprison Julian Assange. In demanding Assange's prosecution under the Espionage Act, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) wrote in The Wall Street Journal that “Mr. Assange claims to be a journalist and would no doubt rely on the First Amendment to defend his actions.” Yet the five-term Senator insisted: "but he is no journalist: He is an agitator intent on damaging our government, whose policies he happens to disagree with, regardless of who gets hurt.” This not-a-real-journalist slogan was also the one used by both the CIA and the corporate media against myself and my colleagues in both the Snowden reporting we did in 2013, as well as the failed attempt to criminally prosecute me in 2020 for the year-long Brazil exposés we did: punishing them is not an attack on press freedom because they are not journalists and what they did is not journalism." https://greenwald.substack.com/p/kyle-rittenhouse-project-veritas https://greenwald.substack.com/p/kyle-rittenhouse-project-ve...
koheripbal 5y ago
It discredits the entire effort to omit journalists who don't support your agenda. It really speaks to the heavy handed bias of the western main stream journalism industry.

bombcar 5y ago

But we do classify others who wrote a few blog articles as “journalist” when they were/are much more obviously engaged in other activities.

1cvmask 5y ago
We also classify people who are spies, publish fake news or lie all the time as journalists as well. During the Church Committee it got public that the publishers of Time Henry Luce, New York Times’ Sulzberger and so many journalists worked for the CIA: “Among the executives who lent their cooperation to the Agency were Williarn Paley of the Columbia Broadcasting System, Henry Luce of Tirne Inc., Arthur Hays Sulzberger of the New York Times, Barry Bingham Sr. of the LouisviIle Courier‑Journal, and James Copley of the Copley News Service. Other organizations which cooperated with the CIA include the American Broadcasting Company, the National Broadcasting Company, the Associated Press, United Press International, Reuters, Hearst Newspapers, Scripps‑Howard, Newsweek magazine, the Mutual Broadcasting System, the Miami Herald and the old Saturday Evening Post and New York Herald‑Tribune. By far the most valuable of these associations, according to CIA officials, have been with the New York Times, CBS and Time Inc.“ http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hearings/ciasuseofjournal00unit.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hear... https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2015/05/06/40-years-ago-church-committee-investigated-americans-spying-on-americans/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2015/05/06/40-y...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

RansomStark 5y ago

[flagged]

bvrmn 5y ago
Russian and Belarus government don't protect their people in any way.
- RansomStark 5y ago
  I'm sorry but that is a absolute statement, verging on propaganda. Of course they protect their people. For example there is significant crime in Russia, but the Russian government fields a police force that enforces the laws of Russia, jailing murderers, thieves, etc [0]. Of course there is corruption, of course some are above the law (but then is true the world over), and you need to play by the local rules, but that is not an absence of protection, although it may not be on par with what you might expect somewhere else. You also have to remember that the justification for the Russian invasion of Crimea was to protect the minority Russian population living in Crimea. So clearly the idea that the Russian government protects Russians is believed to be true within the state of Russia to the point where that idea can be exploited to justify military expansionism. We really need to get past the 'good guy' / 'bad guy' version of politics, the whole world is a shade of grey. [0] https://www.statista.com/topics/5509/crime-in-russia/#dossierKeyfigures https://www.statista.com/topics/5509/crime-in-russia/#dossie...
  - bvrmn 5y ago
    I'm russian by the way. And we can get arrested for single like in social media. Please don't tell me about propaganda.
    - RansomStark 5y ago
      I've not see anyone in the UK arrested for a like, but there are enough examples of people arrested for a single tweet, or retweet [0][1][2]. [0] https://nypost.com/2021/02/08/man-arrested-for-offensive-sir-captain-tom-moore-tweet/ https://nypost.com/2021/02/08/man-arrested-for-offensive-sir... [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/euro-2020-arrests-police-racism-b1884549.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/euro-2020-arrest... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/arrests-for-offensive-facebook-and-twitter-posts-soar-in-london-a7064246.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/arrests-for-offensive-...

ineedasername 5y ago

Your right about Assange, and the really frustrating thing is that if he was a US citizen and did the exact same thing but published in a traditional media outlet then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. US journalists have received all kinds of awful leaked information and not been subjected to this. Although discussion on assassination? Wow, wasn't aware of that. I'll grant that his organization might have stepped into a gray area (apparently the US witness has credibility issues) if they provided Manning with a bit of guidance on how to get more information (unsuccessfully I think) but I don't think that materially changes things all that much.

pydry 5y ago
If Assange did precisely the same thing and exposed Russian or Chinese war crimes the idea that he was justly imprisoned for espionage because of the methods by which he did it would be universally mocked and condemned in the west. Conversely Roman Protasevich's airplane would be downed and he would already be in prison on charges of "fighting on the front line alongside neonazis" (evidence is that he did neonazi azov PR but probably did not fight), while the Russians condemned us for imprisoning a valiant journalist.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  >Roman Protasevich's airplane I don't know, Russia has a long tradition (with the USSR before it) to get creative with assassinations. Everything from poisoning tea with somewhat exotic isotopes to smearing the insides of underwear with neurotoxins, an icepick to the head, or simply gunning someone down in the street.
  - pydry 5y ago
    Not sure i see your point.
    - ineedasername 5y ago
      I wasn't making a rebuttal to the GP, just noting that the Russian government doesn't always go through the trouble of a show trial before conviction. That point shouldn't be taken as me ignoring similar tactics by other world powers, I'm aware of those too. The US planned & tried some creative assassinations against Castro. Realpolitik is messy and cynical and hypocritical.

pydry 5y ago

The absence of assange et al is notable but it's not a bad thing to be campaigning for the release of journalists in other countries.

enriquto 5y ago
The conspicuous absence of Assange is indeed very bad for the purported campaign for the release of journalists "in other countries". Such other countries can now rightfully point to the hypocrisy of this campaign. What the CPJ is doing (omitting Assange in its list) is effectively harmful for the journalists jailed in other countries.
- pydry 5y ago
  Doesn't seem like they've forgotten him https://cpj.org/tags/julianassange/ https://cpj.org/tags/julianassange/ They seem to be fighting his corner, they're just not designating him specifically as a journalist. I think demanding too much moral purity from campaigners is damaging. The perfect is very much the enemy of the good.

sleepysysadmin 5y ago

>So we don’t classify jailed and tortured Julian Assange as a journalist even though he broke amongst some of the biggest news stories over the last 20 years. I do believe he is considered a journalist but he's in prison for multiple reasons. False and retracted sexual assault allegations in Sweden. Which technically had nothing to do with journalism and far more to do with Sweden's considerable problem with rape in their country. Sweden went to the extent that it's rape if you don't have written consent for sex. They also removed all the intent/threats/violence as being part of it as well. Effectively they made sex illegal. >Or that the Trump administration planned on assasinating him. Woah, never heard this before. Trump directly benefitted from assange and even praised him. Though never actually helped him in any way. I believe he kinda disavowed knowing anything about him. I do believe that was a big political mistake by Trump. If Trump gave Assange a pardon... that would have been huge. As for CIA making plans under Trump... clearly didnt happen. > Or that Joe Biden is trying to extradite him on trumped up charges (pun not intended). It is afterall the democrat email servers assange leaked. Biden's going all in for sure. >Or the Black TV reporter Bilal Abdul Kareem from Chicago that Obama tried to kill multiple times: woah, thats another i never heard. nobel peace prize obama took his attention away from his 7 wars to try to kill some journalist from his home city? This seems more like the CIA isn't under control.

1cvmask 5y ago
Glad you noticed the Chicago reference. There are many more such examples. My favorite doublespeak is the fancy name for killing Obama administration used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix
pell 5y ago
The following is not so much an attempt at arguing with the poster but to correct falsehoods and blatant misrepresentations in their post. > I do believe he is considered a journalist but he's in prison for multiple reasons. Right now he’s only in prison due to the extradition trial. The reason he isn’t out on bail is because he skipped bail in the past. > Sweden went to the extent that it's rape if you don't have written consent for sex. They also removed all the intent/threats/violence as being part of it as well. Effectively they made sex illegal. This is an incredibly absurd recount of Swedish law. It’s evident you do not know much about it. Swedish law defines rape as sex without consent. This definition was passed in 2018. The accusations against Assange were made in 2010. The conviction rates do not reflect your assumption that sex itself is deemed illegal in Sweden. The charges against Assange were also dropped. By the way, one accusation against him was that he penetrated a woman without a condom while she was sleeping. That is considered rape in most countries around the world. So even if we were to take your incorrect description of Sweden’s rape laws seriously they wouldn’t fit the bill here. > It is afterall the democrat email servers assange leaked. Biden's going all in for sure. The US case against Assanges originated in the Obama era. However his administration decided to not go forward with it. It was Trump’s administration who decided to make the extradition request. Assange was forced out of the Ecuadorian embassy during Trump’s tenure. So this had nothing to do with DNC leaks, nor was this a Democrat endeavor. Whatever one thinks of Assange or his work with Wikileaks, the way he is being treated by the US and the UK is entirely absurd and does not show any signs of fair trial at this point. News outlets in the US have done a poor job at holding the government accountable here. If Assange does get extradited and convicted it will break journalism in the United States fundamentally.

gadders 5y ago

Project Veritas was recently raided by the FBI and had material taken as well.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
long_time_gone 5y ago
I think this is where the question of "what is a journalist?" comes into play. What legitimate journalism has Project Veritas done? Wikipedia makes them seem more like a political hit squad than legitimate journalists: == Project Veritas unsuccessfully attempted to mislead The Washington Post into publishing false information about the Roy Moore sexual misconduct allegations in 2017; the Post won a Pulitzer Prize after uncovering the operation.== == In 2020, The New York Times published an exposé detailing Project Veritas' use of spies recruited by Erik Prince, to infiltrate "Democratic congressional campaigns, labor organizations and other groups considered hostile to the Trump agenda".== - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Veritas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Veritas - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/politics/erik-prince-project-veritas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/politics/erik-prince-p...
- gadders 5y ago
  Well Wikipedia and the NYT are hardly unbiassed sources, but for an independent left wing view I suggest you read what Glen Greenwald wrote: "This not-a-real-journalist tactic was and remains the primary theory used by those who justify the ongoing attempt to imprison Julian Assange. In demanding Assange's prosecution under the Espionage Act, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) wrote in The Wall Street Journal that “Mr. Assange claims to be a journalist and would no doubt rely on the First Amendment to defend his actions.” Yet the five-term Senator insisted: "but he is no journalist: He is an agitator intent on damaging our government, whose policies he happens to disagree with, regardless of who gets hurt.” This not-a-real-journalist slogan was also the one used by both the CIA and the corporate media against myself and my colleagues in both the Snowden reporting we did in 2013, as well as the failed attempt to criminally prosecute me in 2020 for the year-long Brazil exposés we did: punishing them is not an attack on press freedom because they are not journalists and what they did is not journalism." https://greenwald.substack.com/p/kyle-rittenhouse-project-veritas https://greenwald.substack.com/p/kyle-rittenhouse-project-ve...

koheripbal 5y ago

It discredits the entire effort to omit journalists who don't support your agenda. It really speaks to the heavy handed bias of the western main stream journalism industry.