7 ms·
I think I've read a few posts on this type on HN, and it seems to me like they are similar in a few ways, there might not be anything wrong with that, but I am
by dusted 5y ago
I think I've read a few posts on this type on HN, and it seems to me like they are similar in a few ways, there might not be anything wrong with that, but I am still somewhat inclined to believe these things are why the job hunt is not going well for them.
Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that? I'll challenge the notion and call it "An inability to find meaning in the available work."
Feeling attacked about their profile, but not changing them to accommodate.
Supposedly seniors relying on recruiters and job offers instead of using their network, if they've worked with people in the past, and can't draw on that, I wonder how that is, is it that everybody they worked with are not nice people and don't like them ?
Sense of entitlement, _YOU_ liking the hiring manager? It's your job to get the hiring manager to like you, not the other way around.
Sense of pride, interview went well, got offer, got ghosted ? Well, what did you do to fix it? I'd have walked into office, hardcopy of offer in hand and told the first person I meet: "Hi, I got this offer, I'm glad to accept! Who can I talk to ?"
Not knowing your place: You were supposedly not hired into some leadership position to change the world from day 1, you have opinions, they are based on previous experiences, made elsewhere. Shut up, listen, learn, observe and do your best to do what they ask of you, at least the first half year or more, and then start gently providing input and resistance, show that you can do it their way before trying to get them to do it yours.
You don't sound unlucky, you sound hard to get along with to be rudely honest.
- foogazi 5y ago> Supposedly seniors relying on recruiters and job offers instead of using their network This always stands out to me I’ve had 6 jobs since college: only #5 was outside my network (which I leveraged into #6)
- sascha_sl 5y ago> Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that? I'll challenge the notion and call it "An inability to find meaning in the available work." Having an impact. Right now, I'm stuck in a glue code + terraform + maintaining third party code job. 2 years ago I did platform engineering with high impact features for ~100 people across ~20 teams. > Sense of entitlement, _YOU_ liking the hiring manager? It's your job to get the hiring manager to like you, not the other way around. Particularly in tech, if you forego extreme salaries, you should pick who you want to work with. You spend more than half of your time awake with these people after all. > Not knowing your place: You were supposedly not hired into some leadership position to change the world from day 1, you have opinions, they are based on previous experiences, made elsewhere. Shut up, listen, learn, observe and do your best to do what they ask of you, at least the first half year or more, and then start gently providing input and resistance, show that you can do it their way before trying to get them to do it yours. This is the kicker. You can make things better, but you have to pick your fights, and even with those you need to be careful and have some diplomacy skills to seem helpful rather than a rude know-it-all. Remember, if you call something crap, you're probably doing it close to the person who is responsible for it being crap. They might even know it's not good but were restricted by time. Choose your words carefully.
- samhw 5y ago> Remember, if you call something crap, you're probably doing it close to the person who is responsible for it being crap. I got bitten by this once. It turns out there's a variable φ(crap) representing the amount of time you have to work at a company before – what I thought were – self-deprecating comments, about the app being a piece of shit, are regarded as self-deprecating, rather than an outsider trashing their work. > if you forego extreme salaries Just FWIW, to forego is to go before, whereas to forgo is to go without.
- bjourne 5y agoWhat you're saying is that the app is crap, everyone knows it is crap, but it's a faux pas for the new person to say it? If so, it seems it is not really about the crappy app but more about the in-group pecking order. Wish adults would be mature enough to forgo things like that.
- dusted 5y agoThing is, context means something to people, a new person coming in starting shitting all over everything has no context for saying that, they may be right, but the don't have any shared experiences of why it is so, and that makes a difference. Having suffered through things together, it makes a difference, it softens the words, or at least, it points them away from people, and into situations, situations of the past, that a newcomer cannot know, and so, cannot be referring to.
- samhw 5y agoThanks for the explanation! Like I said in my own reply (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29512035 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29512035), this is spot-on and better than I could have expressed it – and, clearly, than I did express it – myself. It's about whether you're part of the 'we' whose work you're deprecating.
- bjourne 5y agoNot having knowledge of the context should work in the new persons favor. They don't know how the app was developed, or what everyone else thinks about it, but can immediately recognize that it is crap and dares to say so. Bravery and honesty are traits to be cherished. And in your example, the app is crap is a true statement. So it still seem to me to be more about in-group/out-group psychology, the workplace's pecking order, and fragile bruised egos than anything else.
- arenaninja 5y agoNot OP but there's one point of yours I take issue with: > Supposedly seniors relying on recruiters and job offers instead of using their network, if they've worked with people in the past, and can't draw on that, I wonder how that is, is it that everybody they worked with are not nice people and don't like them ? I'm good at my job, senior and even led teams (tech lead) a couple of times at large public companies by now and when changing jobs I couldn't use my network. I don't live in a tech hub (also sounds like OP's situation) and most of my former coworkers/managers lack ambition/drive to get to companies/teams I aim to get hired at. The reason being that most of the companies I worked for were not tech and this is a severe handicap - to put it in perspective I make almost twice what my manager made 5 years ago
- dusted 5y agoA thoughtful reply, thank you. I'm not talking about necessarily getting a dream job, or even a good job through your network, especially if you're aiming high, but then rules are different then, you can't both be "perpetually rained-upon unlucky never getting a break unlucky dev" and be "well, I could get _THOSE_ jobs, but I'm so unlucky because I can't land absolute top-tier ones even though I definitely feel like I deserve it." at the same time.
- nordicengineer 5y agoWould you say this math is reasonable? - 3 companies/year (3y on average at a company) - 2 teams/company (1.5y on average in a team) - max 10 members/team - add a 5x factor meaning you will BOND!!! (closely enough to dream of working again with you) with 50 other people outside of your team, which is crazy if you ask me, but I'm playing along 3x2x60 = 360 people. That's your entire network in 10 years, pure acquaintances, not people that you bonded with. My humble view is that maybe you bond with 2 team members and maybe another 5 people outside of the team. 3x2x7 = 42 people. Which is actually not far from Dunbar's number of 50 friends and 150 meaningful contacts. 42. That's how many people would actually vouch for you within a 10 year period. My network is not my problem. Everyone is wonderful and supportive. But you know very well that recommending someone isn't everything. You make it sound like if someone recommends you, then you shortcircuit the interview process and the stars align and you should just say thanks for having a job, any job.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y agoI disagree with this. You sound like a manager I'd never want to work for because you seem to believe this relationship is all about you and I'm some kind of servant. > Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that? A lot of people like to feel like they're contributing positively to the world. If you can't explain how their job does that then maybe your company isn't a positive in the world. > Sense of entitlement, _YOU_ liking the hiring manager? It's your job to get the hiring manager to like you, not the other way around. It's a two-way street. Why would I want to work for a jackass? That's a recipe for unhappiness. I want a manager I can work with, not one I have to suck it up and work for. > Not knowing your place: You were supposedly not hired into some leadership position to change the world from day 1, you have opinions, they are based on previous experiences, made elsewhere. Shut up, listen, learn, observe and do your best to do what they ask of you, at least the first half year or more, and then start gently providing input and resistance, show that you can do it their way before trying to get them to do it yours. Ok, this at least is decent advice even if I don't care for the 'know your place' framing.
- dusted 5y agoI'm a swdev who knows this relationship is all about my company wanting to make a profit off of me, and me wanting to earn money by providing my company with the service that they need in order to do that. Yes, that includes pushing back and resisting stupidity, but it does not consist entirely of me getting my way in every little detail because I'm oh-so uniquely blessed with the magic and rare ability to program a computer. I'm totally not buying into the silicon valley "we're changing the world!!1one" hype, get real, we sit in comfy offices, playing with computers all day. You're not working for the hiring manager, don't screw it up before you've at least come inside to have a look around, and have had a shot at making a nice environment for yourself in your position, which won't happen when you get offended so easily. Places change around with experience, respect is something you earn, and you start from scratch every time, even within new teams in the same corp.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago> Yes, that includes pushing back and resisting stupidity, but it does not consist entirely of me getting my way in every little detail because I'm oh-so uniquely blessed with the magic and rare ability to program a computer. Ok, that I can agree with. I think I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't push back on ideas I thought were bad, but at the end of the day it is my manager's responsibility so it is their decision.
- plutonorm 5y agoHe sounds like a person high in creativity trying to get along with standard developers who, by and large, are not creative people. Creativity is a one of the big 5 character traits and pretty immutable. If you are highly creative you #need# new experiences, it's not just a preference, it's necessary for your psychological well being. Moving into and working with companies dominated by non creative types, who prefer order and structure and consistency, can be soul destroying. People of this type often find themselves pushing against huge structural resistance to change within organisations and it can seem inexplicable because they fail to appreciate how different others are to them. It can be quite a revelation to appreciate that other people might actually be adverse to change, rather than energised by it. Your response is a standard response from someone who isn't high in creativity, who is not particularly open minded. you do not appreciate the #need# for creative expression, just as he does not understand your strong preferences for order and consistency. Both kinds of personality on this axis of the big 5 are useful to a company in their own ways. Low creativity is useful for maintaining systems, keeping things running in known environments. High creatives are best placed at the frontier of the new, where the land is not yet known. There is also some merit to the farmer/hunter stereotype imho. Farmers like consistency and routine, hunters are open and distractible and creative. My recommendation to the OP is to go work in startups. Big companies are usually heavily populated with farmer types low in creativity and high in other traits. The OP needs to go to the edge where he is needed, not in the middle where he is not. But honestly in my career it has not been easy to find the right positions either and over time I have come to understand the problem as described above. Creatives need to be in a role where new ground is being broken, with freedom to express their creativity. This is not an easy position to find and won't really become available until later in a career. But this isn't unique to the developer career, it's a general problem for high creatives to find a place in a society that wants them to be a cog when they have a deep, powerful, unchangeable and fundamental need to be anything but a cog. It's a hard challenge, and they should treat it as just that, a challenge requiring a creative solution.
- pseudalopex 5y agoCreativity isn't a Big 5 trait.
- mvc 5y ago> Supposedly seniors relying on recruiters and job offers instead of using their network, if they've worked with people in the past, and can't draw on that, I wonder how that is, is it that everybody they worked with are not nice people and don't like them ? Half my network of previous managers has joined facebook/meta :-(
- dangerface 5y ago> Almost always asking for "meaningful" jobs. What even is that? There are lots of companies that are always "looking to higher" but they aren't actively highering, bullshit "job opportunities" are everywhere. > Feeling attacked about their profile, but not changing them to accommodate. Their profile should be an honest description of their abilities. Suggesting they change to "accommodate" sounds like you are suggesting they just bullshit to get the job like every one else? > Supposedly seniors relying on recruiters and job offers Unless your friends are recruiters they are probably too busy with their own work to find you a job. Looking for job offers and recruiters are two very well proven strategies to get a job, implying otherwise is odd. > It's your job to get the hiring manager to like you, not the other way around. Again sounds like your advice is just talk bullshit to get a job you have no real interest in. Bad advice. To be rudely honest you come across as a bullshitter with no useful advice.
- dusted 5y ago> There are lots of companies.. You can find meaning in anything if you look at it the right way, even if you're writing soulless fintech code to steal from the poor, there are probably interesting challenges in there.. How facebook manages to infer so much about their users based on the data they're stealing? Interesting problems even if they're distasteful. > Their profile should be an honest description ... They most certainly should ,what I mean by accommodate is not to bullshit, but to gain actual experience with [keyword] if that's really something that's a problem (I've NEVER encountered anyone saying that I miss [keyword], if asked about [keyword] I will answer honestly, ranging from 'heard of, not touching' through 'know well, not touching again' to 'no idea, can probably learn'. > Unless your friends are recruiters they are probably too busy with their own work to find you a job... Usually you can get a job by asking a friend to put in a word for you at their place, or just letting them know you're looking. > Again sounds like your advice is just talk bullshit.. Making someone like in as socially-shallow a situation as a job-interview _IS_ bullshitting, it's called social norms, it's being polite and pleasant and well dressed and whatever else is typically expected. I'm not suggesting they lie or mislead, if they're genuinely an unlikable person and feel like they want to be, well, sorry, but that's probably a contributing factor to not getting a job. > To be rudely honest you come across as a bullshitter with no useful advice. I'm perfectly okay with that, it'd be rather a boring thread if every perspective was exactly the same, but OP feels like a typical overly spoiled primadonna to me. It's probably because I come from a somewhat less privileged background, having seen what cards other people are dealt, it seems incredibly bratty to come on HN, whining not that you can't find _ANY_JOB_AT_ALL_NOMATTER_WHAT_ but that you can't land your absolute dream job because you're basically intolerably picky and absolutely unable to adapt yourself. I'm sure OP has a lot of potential, but they seem to be so hard-set in their ways, wanting everything to be just-so in order to even give it a chance, that they cheat themselves out of it.
- codeddesign 5y agoAgreed. If people aren’t chasing after you then you have done something wrong along the way. Learn and adapt. Ask yourself “what did I not convince them of that they didn’t hire me on the spot?”