5 ms·

Also, consider that a half-way complex piece of software (from our outside POV) is enormously more complex than your average IC, vehicle (if you exclude the mou

Also, consider that a half-way complex piece of software (from our outside POV) is enormously more complex than your average IC, vehicle (if you exclude the mountain of software controlling it), or general "engineering" project in other disciplines. Obviously that isn't always true (CPUs, James Web telescope, for example are also enormously complex) but most seemingly simple things you use every day (random example: Grubhub) are massively complicated to build, evolve, and keep running each day. Dismissing them as not real engineering is really ignorant and rude. The ME and EE associated with creating new product like the Nest Thermostat (for example) are, by comparison with something like Grubhub, of trivial engineering complexity (although still very respectable engineering efforts)

dmitriid 5y ago
> seemingly simple things you use every day (random example: Grubhub) are massively complicated to build, evolve, and keep running each day What exactly is massively complicated about a predatory aggregator site compared to a vehicle?
- eagsalazar2 5y ago
  What does their predatory nature have to do with complexity?
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    Remove predatory, keep the question.
    - eagsalazar2 5y ago
      Look past trees, see forest. Let go of your desire to shit on developers and the cheap satisfaction you get from doing so.
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > Look past trees, see forest. I have. > Let go of your desire to shit on developers So you're a psychic now, and you read into people's desires by looking at HN posts? The question remains. But it's clear you can't answer it without ad hominem.
        eagsalazar2 5y ago
        You are asking a silly question. Jeeze, maybe it isn't the best comparison, maybe I should have been more specific. The point you are asking about in no way affects my larger point so who cares. You harping on it is just weird.
        dmitriid 5y ago
        > You are asking a silly question. It's a perfectly valid question: what makes an aggregator site like GrubHub a more complex engineering problem than a vehicle? > maybe it isn't the best comparison, maybe I should have been more specific. May be it is, may be you should have been, but you weren't > The point you are asking about in no way affects my larger point so who cares What is your larger point exactly? That "having a CI" somehow make you an engineer because your software is somehow "more complex than a vehicle"? > You harping on it is just weird. The fact that you answered literally nothing, and keep sticking to ad hominem attacks show that you have no substance to what you're saying.
iriri8 5y ago
I’ve been writing software professionally since the 90s. Tons of software is pointless crap to make jobs. I’m gonna go with Carmack on this one; you think you have a better understanding of it than him? It’s just ifs and for loops. Sure some contexts require real nuance. But just because Grubhub IS massive doesn’t mean it needs to be engineered that way, that’s a byproduct of socio-political forces (money). There’s nothing in any science or engineering book I’ve read that says “all software must be engineered as a large distributed application”. Again, a byproduct of contemporary business goals. My generative art object app is not sending people to the moon and merely relied on me wrapping some well understood math in machine language syntax; it’s librarian work. Your preference for adverbs and emphasis where you see fit to place it does not move me. Accomplish something net new for humans, cause I’ve been sending data grams over the internet since the 80s. Grubhub isn’t all that interesting
- eagsalazar2 5y ago
  What percentage of software projects are complete disasters? In spite of being staffed almost entirely by people with CS degrees? 50%? 60%? I guess that is because it is so easy? Whether from a societal POV they need to be that complicated, the answer is of course "no", it is all about business goals and is mostly crap we don't need. But what has that got to do with the price of tea in China? The discussion is about whether software is "real" engineering, not if engineers are engaged in meaningful work. On that front, the idea that software systems with 100s of features, millions of daily users, extreme uptime requirements, hackers all over the world trying to break in daily , and billions of $$ on the line is "ifs and for loops" or "librarian work" is... oh come on. Never mind, this conversation is silly. You say you are an experienced developer, but honestly it sounds like you've never built anything except generative art object apps.

dmitriid 5y ago

> seemingly simple things you use every day (random example: Grubhub) are massively complicated to build, evolve, and keep running each day What exactly is massively complicated about a predatory aggregator site compared to a vehicle?

eagsalazar2 5y ago
What does their predatory nature have to do with complexity?
- dmitriid 5y ago
  Remove predatory, keep the question.
  - eagsalazar2 5y ago
    Look past trees, see forest. Let go of your desire to shit on developers and the cheap satisfaction you get from doing so.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > Look past trees, see forest. I have. > Let go of your desire to shit on developers So you're a psychic now, and you read into people's desires by looking at HN posts? The question remains. But it's clear you can't answer it without ad hominem.
      - eagsalazar2 5y ago
        You are asking a silly question. Jeeze, maybe it isn't the best comparison, maybe I should have been more specific. The point you are asking about in no way affects my larger point so who cares. You harping on it is just weird.
        dmitriid 5y ago
        > You are asking a silly question. It's a perfectly valid question: what makes an aggregator site like GrubHub a more complex engineering problem than a vehicle? > maybe it isn't the best comparison, maybe I should have been more specific. May be it is, may be you should have been, but you weren't > The point you are asking about in no way affects my larger point so who cares What is your larger point exactly? That "having a CI" somehow make you an engineer because your software is somehow "more complex than a vehicle"? > You harping on it is just weird. The fact that you answered literally nothing, and keep sticking to ad hominem attacks show that you have no substance to what you're saying.

iriri8 5y ago

I’ve been writing software professionally since the 90s. Tons of software is pointless crap to make jobs. I’m gonna go with Carmack on this one; you think you have a better understanding of it than him? It’s just ifs and for loops. Sure some contexts require real nuance. But just because Grubhub IS massive doesn’t mean it needs to be engineered that way, that’s a byproduct of socio-political forces (money). There’s nothing in any science or engineering book I’ve read that says “all software must be engineered as a large distributed application”. Again, a byproduct of contemporary business goals. My generative art object app is not sending people to the moon and merely relied on me wrapping some well understood math in machine language syntax; it’s librarian work. Your preference for adverbs and emphasis where you see fit to place it does not move me. Accomplish something net new for humans, cause I’ve been sending data grams over the internet since the 80s. Grubhub isn’t all that interesting

eagsalazar2 5y ago
What percentage of software projects are complete disasters? In spite of being staffed almost entirely by people with CS degrees? 50%? 60%? I guess that is because it is so easy? Whether from a societal POV they need to be that complicated, the answer is of course "no", it is all about business goals and is mostly crap we don't need. But what has that got to do with the price of tea in China? The discussion is about whether software is "real" engineering, not if engineers are engaged in meaningful work. On that front, the idea that software systems with 100s of features, millions of daily users, extreme uptime requirements, hackers all over the world trying to break in daily , and billions of $$ on the line is "ifs and for loops" or "librarian work" is... oh come on. Never mind, this conversation is silly. You say you are an experienced developer, but honestly it sounds like you've never built anything except generative art object apps.