5 ms·

> Nonsensical mask/distancing/sanitation protocols for people at low or no risk I'm a teacher. I really don't want to catch COVID from a kid and bring it to m

by mlyle 5y ago

> Nonsensical mask/distancing/sanitation protocols for people at low or no risk I'm a teacher. I really don't want to catch COVID from a kid and bring it to my immunocompromised dad. So, irrespective of the risk to students (which is not high but I would not characterize it as low either), there are additionally risks to students' families and faculty.

tqi 5y ago
Those protocols are theater, and have no demonstrable effect on reducing transmission.
- mlyle 5y ago
  Actually, we have a number of studies-- showing lower transmission rates in schools using mitigations (ventilation improvements, screening, teacher microphones, and masking)-- and we have aerosol-model based physics providing justification for why this works -- https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.23.21253503v3.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.23.21253503v... And, anecdote: I'm at a school with windows open & masking. We have a fair amount of mandated testing, and there's been no transmission at school detected despite several primary cases. Compare to other schools with a lot of transmission detected. I don't financially need to work. I find teaching rewarding, but I'm not willing to kill my dad for it, kthx. I'm glad to be at a school which is making a reasonable compromise in this area.
  - tqi 5y ago
    I'm speaking mostly about SFUSD covid guidelines[1], which prominently mention hand sanitizer, disinfecting wipes, gloves, and gowns. AFAIK we have no evidence of those being effective at reducing indoor transmission. Re: risk, I think that is a completely reasonable position for you to take. I also think it is reasonable for parents to prefer an environment that they feel is optimized for their kids needs. [1] https://www.sfusd.edu/covid-19-response-updates-and-resources/health-and-safety-guidelines/maintaining-healthy-environments https://www.sfusd.edu/covid-19-response-updates-and-resource...
    - mlyle 5y ago
      > I'm speaking mostly about SFUSD covid guidelines[1], which prominently mention hand sanitizer, disinfecting wipes, gloves, and gowns. AFAIK we have no evidence of those being effective at reducing indoor transmission. That just says those supplies will be available. They're available at my workplace, too. This is the one thing that we've de-emphasized this year: > Staff will clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces like door handles, desks, countertops, phones, keyboards, light switches, handles, toilets and faucets at least once daily. OTOH, I do run a lab and now wipe down the frequently used tools a couple of times per day. It may or may not make a difference for COVID, but it probably will reduce the transmission of stomach bugs and influenza.
stolenmerch 5y ago
I don't want your dad to get covid either. But every single school child and teacher has access to a vaccine at this point and teachers who feel they are at a special risk have access to KN95 masks. Instead, everyone has to wear some kind of cloth mask to show that "wearing is caring". We now have almost two years of data to look at. The risk to children is absurdly low.
- mlyle 5y ago
  > I don't want your dad to get covid either. Welp, students in my classes wearing their masks is a big part of how I'm still able to see my dad and not kill him. > Instead, everyone has to wear some kind of cloth mask to show that "wearing is caring". Because it's one of the most effective measures we have. Research (both observational and based on aerosol modeling) implies that surgical/cloth masks and getting windows open each reduces risk of infection about 4-5x, and they stack on top of each other for a ~20x total reduction. That's enough, with vaccination, to make me comfortable seeing my dad (masked). > The risk to children is absurdly low. About 70k kids hospitalized in the US so far-- so that's not absurdly low. And, again, the risk to children's families and faculty (and faculty families) counts too.
  - actfrench 5y ago
    There is a huge risk to kids. My friends Jeremy Howard and Rachel Thomas recently compiled research on this topic. Especially of concern is long-term effects of COVID on children. Rachel says, "research shows we downplay long-term effects of Covid on children" https://twitter.com/math_rachel/status/1454242957259800578 https://twitter.com/math_rachel/status/1454242957259800578 https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1420981223535517696 https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1420981223535517696 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01935-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01935-7
    - mlyle 5y ago
      Who knows, right? As the Nature article you cited points out, the research we have now is poorly controlled and hopelessly confounded and pointing in many different directions. My personal belief is that COVID-19 and influenza are probably similar in children. But even that is more risk than people generally realize: a whole lot of permanent impact happens from influenza in children, but we just accept it and shrug it off as inevitable. And, of course, while the average risk to kids may be moderate, there's also the much higher risk of cases communicated by children to their family, faculty, and the community at large.
actfrench 5y ago
I agree. Masks are so effective at stopping the spread of disease. As a former teacher/tutor/sub who moved around a lot, even before COVID-19, I got sick all the time. Little kid diseases are often less apparent in the little kids than adults, and teachers are just surrounded by runny noses, kids couching and sneezing, touching stuff, picking their nose, etc. It's nice to have a little protection. Hand sanitizer I don't think is as effective, but washing hands for sure.

by mlyle 5y ago

tqi 5y ago

Those protocols are theater, and have no demonstrable effect on reducing transmission.

mlyle 5y ago
Actually, we have a number of studies-- showing lower transmission rates in schools using mitigations (ventilation improvements, screening, teacher microphones, and masking)-- and we have aerosol-model based physics providing justification for why this works -- https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.23.21253503v3.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.23.21253503v... And, anecdote: I'm at a school with windows open & masking. We have a fair amount of mandated testing, and there's been no transmission at school detected despite several primary cases. Compare to other schools with a lot of transmission detected. I don't financially need to work. I find teaching rewarding, but I'm not willing to kill my dad for it, kthx. I'm glad to be at a school which is making a reasonable compromise in this area.
- tqi 5y ago
  I'm speaking mostly about SFUSD covid guidelines[1], which prominently mention hand sanitizer, disinfecting wipes, gloves, and gowns. AFAIK we have no evidence of those being effective at reducing indoor transmission. Re: risk, I think that is a completely reasonable position for you to take. I also think it is reasonable for parents to prefer an environment that they feel is optimized for their kids needs. [1] https://www.sfusd.edu/covid-19-response-updates-and-resources/health-and-safety-guidelines/maintaining-healthy-environments https://www.sfusd.edu/covid-19-response-updates-and-resource...
  - mlyle 5y ago
    > I'm speaking mostly about SFUSD covid guidelines[1], which prominently mention hand sanitizer, disinfecting wipes, gloves, and gowns. AFAIK we have no evidence of those being effective at reducing indoor transmission. That just says those supplies will be available. They're available at my workplace, too. This is the one thing that we've de-emphasized this year: > Staff will clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces like door handles, desks, countertops, phones, keyboards, light switches, handles, toilets and faucets at least once daily. OTOH, I do run a lab and now wipe down the frequently used tools a couple of times per day. It may or may not make a difference for COVID, but it probably will reduce the transmission of stomach bugs and influenza.

stolenmerch 5y ago

I don't want your dad to get covid either. But every single school child and teacher has access to a vaccine at this point and teachers who feel they are at a special risk have access to KN95 masks. Instead, everyone has to wear some kind of cloth mask to show that "wearing is caring". We now have almost two years of data to look at. The risk to children is absurdly low.

mlyle 5y ago
> I don't want your dad to get covid either. Welp, students in my classes wearing their masks is a big part of how I'm still able to see my dad and not kill him. > Instead, everyone has to wear some kind of cloth mask to show that "wearing is caring". Because it's one of the most effective measures we have. Research (both observational and based on aerosol modeling) implies that surgical/cloth masks and getting windows open each reduces risk of infection about 4-5x, and they stack on top of each other for a ~20x total reduction. That's enough, with vaccination, to make me comfortable seeing my dad (masked). > The risk to children is absurdly low. About 70k kids hospitalized in the US so far-- so that's not absurdly low. And, again, the risk to children's families and faculty (and faculty families) counts too.
- actfrench 5y ago
  There is a huge risk to kids. My friends Jeremy Howard and Rachel Thomas recently compiled research on this topic. Especially of concern is long-term effects of COVID on children. Rachel says, "research shows we downplay long-term effects of Covid on children" https://twitter.com/math_rachel/status/1454242957259800578 https://twitter.com/math_rachel/status/1454242957259800578 https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1420981223535517696 https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1420981223535517696 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01935-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01935-7
  - mlyle 5y ago
    Who knows, right? As the Nature article you cited points out, the research we have now is poorly controlled and hopelessly confounded and pointing in many different directions. My personal belief is that COVID-19 and influenza are probably similar in children. But even that is more risk than people generally realize: a whole lot of permanent impact happens from influenza in children, but we just accept it and shrug it off as inevitable. And, of course, while the average risk to kids may be moderate, there's also the much higher risk of cases communicated by children to their family, faculty, and the community at large.

actfrench 5y ago

I agree. Masks are so effective at stopping the spread of disease. As a former teacher/tutor/sub who moved around a lot, even before COVID-19, I got sick all the time. Little kid diseases are often less apparent in the little kids than adults, and teachers are just surrounded by runny noses, kids couching and sneezing, touching stuff, picking their nose, etc. It's nice to have a little protection. Hand sanitizer I don't think is as effective, but washing hands for sure.