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Which other subjects would you want children to waste years in a cramped classroom being lectured about? Basically anything worth learning is worth discovering

Which other subjects would you want children to waste years in a cramped classroom being lectured about? Basically anything worth learning is worth discovering for yourself. Math is the only important exception, as it is uniquely important in modern life, and it doesn't come to most people naturally.

frankbreetz 5y ago
Reading and science
- legerdemain 5y ago
  Show me a school curriculum that actually teaches how academic science is done today, instead of making students memorize laundry lists of inaccurate and outdated factoids about cell biology, nutrition, psychology, chemistry...
  - mlyle 5y ago
    > Show me a school curriculum that actually teaches how academic science is done today, The things I see are stuff like asking students to gather data, fit lines, and derive Hooke's law from scratch before talking about it. Or giving students a pile of LEDs and a breadboard and asking them to figure out how to measure voltage before talking about electrical circuits in depth. Or giving lenses and figuring out how to raytrace before talking about optics. Or playing with adding and subtracting colors and trying to intuit the laws that apply before talking in depth about light. The idea is to building systemic process of observing and figuring out the rules that seem to apply. Does every lab and every unit reach this standard? No, but it's common enough. When I was teaching Earth Science (as a substitute) last year, we read Science News (journal articles summarized at an 8th grade level) articles about current controversies about whether rainfall in the Hawaiian Islands was precipitating volcanic activity, and I had the students argue about the different views and evidence. 6th graders find it hugely entertaining to have a "science fight" about the evidence and then ultimately suggest their ideas for what types of research might be helpful next. After discovering the basics of laws in a subject area and the processes by which we evaluate information, they move on to "memorizing factoids"--- after all, most of them will be consumers of science rather than academic scientists, and there's some basic knowledge about how the world works that it's beneficial for everyone to know. I agree that science is far too often presented as a body of knowledge in education than a process.
    - legerdemain 5y ago
      Really? Do you personally, or any layman you know of, benefit from knowing the Krebs cycle, or whether schist is igneous or metamorphic?
      - mlyle 5y ago
        > benefit from knowing the Krebs cycle Yes! I know about aerobic and anaerobic respiration. I know about the different ways things break down as a result. I can understand why getting a deep puncture wound is dangerous as a result. I can read scientific journals about related topics. I have an understanding of basic metabolism, so that when I'm confronted by having a metabolic disorder I can know what it means. When people talk about keto, I can draw on this knowledge. When we discuss lactic acid fermentation in tissues, and the controversy about whether this is a primary cause of muscle soreness, I understand that too! > whether schist is igneous or metamorphic? I enjoy knowing about the basics of geology, but it's not been of too much utility to me other than recreation. On the other hand, basic geological knowledge is helpful to a fair number of occupations. But the whole point is to expose people to many things so they can find what interests them and that they're good at.
        actfrench 5y ago
        What about the benefit and joy of learning itself?!!
        mlyle 5y ago
        :D I tend to forget that one, as I'm spoiled by my students to have an already-curious group with the assumption that something interesting is going to happen when they first come into my room. (Maybe not the thing they'd most prefer to do, but at least something interesting).
    - actfrench 5y ago
      Not sure if any of these are used in private or public schools, but they are all top notch. https://www.amazon.com/Building-Foundations-Scientific-Understanding-Curriculum/dp/1432706101 https://www.amazon.com/Building-Foundations-Scientific-Under... https://www.touchpress.com/ https://www.touchpress.com/ https://mysteryscience.com/ https://mysteryscience.com/ https://pbskids.org/apps/play-and-learn-science-.html https://pbskids.org/apps/play-and-learn-science-.html https://www.pandiapress.com/real-science-odyssey/ https://www.pandiapress.com/real-science-odyssey/ https://www.terminaleleven.com/skyview/iphone/ https://www.terminaleleven.com/skyview/iphone/ https://www.tappityapp.com/ https://www.tappityapp.com/ https://tinybop.com/apps/the-human-body https://tinybop.com/apps/the-human-body https://www.wildkratts.com/ https://www.wildkratts.com/
vaidhy 5y ago
Philosophy, history, reading, foundations of science, ethics, learning how to be around other people.. What makes math so important? Most people can get by without it, if they only know how to count money.
cercatrova 5y ago
The problem is most people won't learn it themselves. Like it or not, most children are not precocious, they are simply average. So in that case, school offers a way to teach kids what they don't know, and also to know what they don't know, and to find that out. Without that loop, you'd be hard-pressed to find children who grow into capable adults.
- legerdemain 5y ago
  We don't need to treat average children as if they were exceptional. If they can't learn, why waste their time and taxpayer money when they can just enter the workforce earlier and develop some self-esteem?
  - mlyle 5y ago
    > If they can't learn, Not what the parent said. The question is whether they are inclined to learn independently.
    - legerdemain 5y ago
      Children who can succeed with the material generally seek it out and learn it independently. Lots of examples here on this site of people who self-taught as children by tinkering on their own and grew up to be groundbreaking software engineers.
      - mlyle 5y ago
        Sure, autodidacts exist. I was one, too. Again, that doesn't mean to abandon everyone else. Autodidacts are rare and most people learn through education. It doesn't seem wise to stare at a community of unusual, self-selected people (Hacker News) and try to draw conclusions about the population at large from it.
        legerdemain 5y ago
        Most people don't learn, and, as adults, earn a living in professions that don't rely on school learning, such as retail, picking/packing, home health aides, trucking, technical project management, etc.
mlyle 5y ago
I'm a huge fan of mathematics. However... Being able to communicate effectively and work with groups is a hell of a lot more important to modern life than mathematics. Being able to organize oneself and complete projects and assigned work is important. Being able to peruse written material and absorb information is a critical skill. These are things students learn in school. Yes, they come naturally to some students, the way mathematics comes naturally to others.
- legerdemain 5y ago
  There is a contingent of users on HN who reject the degree to which inborn talents contribute to human abilities. People vary a lot in how well they absorb information and communicate effectively with others. It's silly to claim that forcing children to go to school creates these abilities where they don't exist. The explanation that some children simply mature into adult-like abilities with age and others do not requires a lot fewer hypotheticals.
  - mlyle 5y ago
    There's lots of human variation, sure. That hardly proves that education doesn't work or that the same skills would be acquired otherwise. I can hardly imagine that we'd reach the same literacy rate without an education system. Practice under instructor guidance helps. I teach robotics and other STEM classes. The robotics league that my teams participate in measures teams with both objective and subjective measures: presentation skills matter. Over a term, I see the less technically students develop a lot of hands-on knowledge about mechanics, electronics, and problem solving. I see the one who are already technically inclined build a lot of presentation and communication skills. And everyone learns a lot more about project management and organization. There's a massive apparent difference in abilities at the end of the term and the beginning.
- actfrench 5y ago
  Some subjects are better taught in groups (like theater), while others are much more effective one-on-one (mathematics). And both do require some component of one-one-one and group teaching to really get an in-depth understanding and be able to communicate ideas, meaning both benefit from some one-one-one and group work - and also we shouldn't underestimate independent study, which was accessible by books and now so much more successful through adaptive learning apps.

frankbreetz 5y ago

Reading and science

legerdemain 5y ago
Show me a school curriculum that actually teaches how academic science is done today, instead of making students memorize laundry lists of inaccurate and outdated factoids about cell biology, nutrition, psychology, chemistry...
- mlyle 5y ago
  > Show me a school curriculum that actually teaches how academic science is done today, The things I see are stuff like asking students to gather data, fit lines, and derive Hooke's law from scratch before talking about it. Or giving students a pile of LEDs and a breadboard and asking them to figure out how to measure voltage before talking about electrical circuits in depth. Or giving lenses and figuring out how to raytrace before talking about optics. Or playing with adding and subtracting colors and trying to intuit the laws that apply before talking in depth about light. The idea is to building systemic process of observing and figuring out the rules that seem to apply. Does every lab and every unit reach this standard? No, but it's common enough. When I was teaching Earth Science (as a substitute) last year, we read Science News (journal articles summarized at an 8th grade level) articles about current controversies about whether rainfall in the Hawaiian Islands was precipitating volcanic activity, and I had the students argue about the different views and evidence. 6th graders find it hugely entertaining to have a "science fight" about the evidence and then ultimately suggest their ideas for what types of research might be helpful next. After discovering the basics of laws in a subject area and the processes by which we evaluate information, they move on to "memorizing factoids"--- after all, most of them will be consumers of science rather than academic scientists, and there's some basic knowledge about how the world works that it's beneficial for everyone to know. I agree that science is far too often presented as a body of knowledge in education than a process.
  - legerdemain 5y ago
    Really? Do you personally, or any layman you know of, benefit from knowing the Krebs cycle, or whether schist is igneous or metamorphic?
    - mlyle 5y ago
      > benefit from knowing the Krebs cycle Yes! I know about aerobic and anaerobic respiration. I know about the different ways things break down as a result. I can understand why getting a deep puncture wound is dangerous as a result. I can read scientific journals about related topics. I have an understanding of basic metabolism, so that when I'm confronted by having a metabolic disorder I can know what it means. When people talk about keto, I can draw on this knowledge. When we discuss lactic acid fermentation in tissues, and the controversy about whether this is a primary cause of muscle soreness, I understand that too! > whether schist is igneous or metamorphic? I enjoy knowing about the basics of geology, but it's not been of too much utility to me other than recreation. On the other hand, basic geological knowledge is helpful to a fair number of occupations. But the whole point is to expose people to many things so they can find what interests them and that they're good at.
      - actfrench 5y ago
        What about the benefit and joy of learning itself?!!
        mlyle 5y ago
        :D I tend to forget that one, as I'm spoiled by my students to have an already-curious group with the assumption that something interesting is going to happen when they first come into my room. (Maybe not the thing they'd most prefer to do, but at least something interesting).
  - actfrench 5y ago
    Not sure if any of these are used in private or public schools, but they are all top notch. https://www.amazon.com/Building-Foundations-Scientific-Understanding-Curriculum/dp/1432706101 https://www.amazon.com/Building-Foundations-Scientific-Under... https://www.touchpress.com/ https://www.touchpress.com/ https://mysteryscience.com/ https://mysteryscience.com/ https://pbskids.org/apps/play-and-learn-science-.html https://pbskids.org/apps/play-and-learn-science-.html https://www.pandiapress.com/real-science-odyssey/ https://www.pandiapress.com/real-science-odyssey/ https://www.terminaleleven.com/skyview/iphone/ https://www.terminaleleven.com/skyview/iphone/ https://www.tappityapp.com/ https://www.tappityapp.com/ https://tinybop.com/apps/the-human-body https://tinybop.com/apps/the-human-body https://www.wildkratts.com/ https://www.wildkratts.com/

vaidhy 5y ago

Philosophy, history, reading, foundations of science, ethics, learning how to be around other people.. What makes math so important? Most people can get by without it, if they only know how to count money.

cercatrova 5y ago

The problem is most people won't learn it themselves. Like it or not, most children are not precocious, they are simply average. So in that case, school offers a way to teach kids what they don't know, and also to know what they don't know, and to find that out. Without that loop, you'd be hard-pressed to find children who grow into capable adults.

legerdemain 5y ago
We don't need to treat average children as if they were exceptional. If they can't learn, why waste their time and taxpayer money when they can just enter the workforce earlier and develop some self-esteem?
- mlyle 5y ago
  > If they can't learn, Not what the parent said. The question is whether they are inclined to learn independently.
  - legerdemain 5y ago
    Children who can succeed with the material generally seek it out and learn it independently. Lots of examples here on this site of people who self-taught as children by tinkering on their own and grew up to be groundbreaking software engineers.
    - mlyle 5y ago
      Sure, autodidacts exist. I was one, too. Again, that doesn't mean to abandon everyone else. Autodidacts are rare and most people learn through education. It doesn't seem wise to stare at a community of unusual, self-selected people (Hacker News) and try to draw conclusions about the population at large from it.
      - legerdemain 5y ago
        Most people don't learn, and, as adults, earn a living in professions that don't rely on school learning, such as retail, picking/packing, home health aides, trucking, technical project management, etc.

mlyle 5y ago

I'm a huge fan of mathematics. However... Being able to communicate effectively and work with groups is a hell of a lot more important to modern life than mathematics. Being able to organize oneself and complete projects and assigned work is important. Being able to peruse written material and absorb information is a critical skill. These are things students learn in school. Yes, they come naturally to some students, the way mathematics comes naturally to others.

legerdemain 5y ago
There is a contingent of users on HN who reject the degree to which inborn talents contribute to human abilities. People vary a lot in how well they absorb information and communicate effectively with others. It's silly to claim that forcing children to go to school creates these abilities where they don't exist. The explanation that some children simply mature into adult-like abilities with age and others do not requires a lot fewer hypotheticals.
- mlyle 5y ago
  There's lots of human variation, sure. That hardly proves that education doesn't work or that the same skills would be acquired otherwise. I can hardly imagine that we'd reach the same literacy rate without an education system. Practice under instructor guidance helps. I teach robotics and other STEM classes. The robotics league that my teams participate in measures teams with both objective and subjective measures: presentation skills matter. Over a term, I see the less technically students develop a lot of hands-on knowledge about mechanics, electronics, and problem solving. I see the one who are already technically inclined build a lot of presentation and communication skills. And everyone learns a lot more about project management and organization. There's a massive apparent difference in abilities at the end of the term and the beginning.
actfrench 5y ago
Some subjects are better taught in groups (like theater), while others are much more effective one-on-one (mathematics). And both do require some component of one-one-one and group teaching to really get an in-depth understanding and be able to communicate ideas, meaning both benefit from some one-one-one and group work - and also we shouldn't underestimate independent study, which was accessible by books and now so much more successful through adaptive learning apps.