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> I’m hard pressed to find examples in history of large groups that said, “We thought A, but the answer’s actually B.” End of the Soviet Union?

by patrec 5y ago

mritchie712 5y ago
Did the group in power decide to end it?
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Yes. The final round of the Soviet Union's collapse began on December 1, 1991. That day, a Ukrainian popular referendum resulted in 91 percent of Ukraine's voters voting to affirm the independence declaration passed in August and formally secede from the Union. The secession of Ukraine, long second only to Russia in economic and political power, ended any realistic chance of Gorbachev keeping the Soviet Union together even on a limited scale. The leaders of the three Slavic republics, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus (formerly Byelorussia), agreed to discuss possible alternatives to the union. On December 8, the leaders of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus secretly met in Belavezhskaya Pushcha, in western Belarus, and signed the Belavezha Accords, which proclaimed the Soviet Union had ceased to exist and announced formation of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) as a looser association to take its place. They also invited other republics to join the CIS. Gorbachev called it an unconstitutional coup. However, by this time there was no longer any reasonable doubt that, as the preamble of the Accords put it, "the USSR, as a subject of international law and a geopolitical reality, is ceasing its existence." The final dissolution occurred on 25 December 1991 as General Secretary and President of the Soviet Union, Mikhail Gorbachev, resigned and transferred power to Russian Presiden Boris Yeltsin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union#Fall:_August_to_December https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Unio...
  - mritchie712 5y ago
    Bu it's not "the same people" in the group. The Soviet Union lasted ~69 years, plenty of time for the original group to die out.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      On 8 December 1991 "Gorbachev called it an unconstitutional coup.". On 25 December 1991, in a nationally-televised speech, "Gorbachev resigned as president of the Soviet Union – or, as he put it, "I hereby discontinue my activities at the post of President of the USSR."[137] He declared the office extinct, and all of its powers (such as control of the nuclear arsenal[138]) were ceded to Yeltsin. A week earlier, Gorbachev had met with Yeltsin and accepted the fait accompli of the Soviet Union's dissolution." You are claiming thse are two different Mikhail Gorbachevs? That's without even considering the case of parliaments and leadership of the other former Soviet republics also discussed. Your claim has no merits.
- Aidevah 5y ago
  No. The faction that opposed Gorbachev tried to halt and reverse his reforms, and the support of the coup was so extensive inside the party that the subsequent purge after the coup seriously weakened the party so that breakup was just a matter of time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat...

> I’m hard pressed to find examples in history of large groups that said, “We thought A, but the answer’s actually B.” End of the Soviet Union?

by patrec 5y ago

> I’m hard pressed to find examples in history of large groups that said, “We thought A, but the answer’s actually B.” End of the Soviet Union?

mritchie712 5y ago

Did the group in power decide to end it?

dredmorbius 5y ago
Yes. The final round of the Soviet Union's collapse began on December 1, 1991. That day, a Ukrainian popular referendum resulted in 91 percent of Ukraine's voters voting to affirm the independence declaration passed in August and formally secede from the Union. The secession of Ukraine, long second only to Russia in economic and political power, ended any realistic chance of Gorbachev keeping the Soviet Union together even on a limited scale. The leaders of the three Slavic republics, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus (formerly Byelorussia), agreed to discuss possible alternatives to the union. On December 8, the leaders of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus secretly met in Belavezhskaya Pushcha, in western Belarus, and signed the Belavezha Accords, which proclaimed the Soviet Union had ceased to exist and announced formation of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) as a looser association to take its place. They also invited other republics to join the CIS. Gorbachev called it an unconstitutional coup. However, by this time there was no longer any reasonable doubt that, as the preamble of the Accords put it, "the USSR, as a subject of international law and a geopolitical reality, is ceasing its existence." The final dissolution occurred on 25 December 1991 as General Secretary and President of the Soviet Union, Mikhail Gorbachev, resigned and transferred power to Russian Presiden Boris Yeltsin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union#Fall:_August_to_December https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Unio...
- mritchie712 5y ago
  Bu it's not "the same people" in the group. The Soviet Union lasted ~69 years, plenty of time for the original group to die out.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    On 8 December 1991 "Gorbachev called it an unconstitutional coup.". On 25 December 1991, in a nationally-televised speech, "Gorbachev resigned as president of the Soviet Union – or, as he put it, "I hereby discontinue my activities at the post of President of the USSR."[137] He declared the office extinct, and all of its powers (such as control of the nuclear arsenal[138]) were ceded to Yeltsin. A week earlier, Gorbachev had met with Yeltsin and accepted the fait accompli of the Soviet Union's dissolution." You are claiming thse are two different Mikhail Gorbachevs? That's without even considering the case of parliaments and leadership of the other former Soviet republics also discussed. Your claim has no merits.
Aidevah 5y ago
No. The faction that opposed Gorbachev tried to halt and reverse his reforms, and the support of the coup was so extensive inside the party that the subsequent purge after the coup seriously weakened the party so that breakup was just a matter of time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat...