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Yes, my partner was a conference planner and whenever they had one in NYC in the Time offices their team wasn't allowed to adjust tables by themselves, everythi

Yes, my partner was a conference planner and whenever they had one in NYC in the Time offices their team wasn't allowed to adjust tables by themselves, everything had to be done by formal work order tickets and only union hands could touch anything, even equipment they owned and brought in themselves. Coincidentally, this new infrastructure bill has union requirements for any EV work.

dr_dshiv 5y ago
Unions get a bad rap. They don’t have to be bad. Everyone should have an incentive for efficiency.
- bshipp 5y ago
  Its an interesting question. I'm not a union guy and spent my youth working in construction so I've encountered my share of plodding union tradesmen who took remarkably long to do small things that could be finished in a few minutes if you rushed. When I was young and foolish I'd often shake my head at the snails-pace they worked at. I'm older now, and arguably a smidgen wiser. I've reacted with shock at hearing about old acquaintances who have been killed on the job or now endure chronic pain and are no longer able to work. Broken backs, bum knees, busted nerves, missing fingers, the list goes on. The plodding, methodical 55 year-old union guy is looking less and less silly the older I get. In short, perhaps one reason a union might push back against performance-based bonuses is that it often ends up coming at a long-term cost to the worker that is difficult to foresee when you're an invincible 25 year-old trying to make a few extra bucks for the weekend.
  - poopypoopington 5y ago
    Say you're laying rail track. It will be used for 50+ years. Better to lay it once, relatively slowly, and well than to do a shoddy quick job and have to repair it every 5 years. Perhaps another argument for the plodding, methodical 55 year-old union guy's way of working?
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      But the union don't recommend things for engineering reasons though, do they? That's not their remit and they don't represent users of the railway or future maintainers of the railway. They represent the employees today. In fact the incentive of the union is shoddier work so they have more work to do late to replace it.
  - warble 5y ago
    Worked with unions before - some are definitely better than others and some are really great at their jobs, efficient and good quality work. Some are REALLY bad - all the slow inefficient protectionist BS you hear about, they're definitely out there and it's not because they're more careful about quality. I really don't know the ratio, but in my highly incomplete experience it was about 50/50.. This is purely conjecture, but the real problem to me SEEMS to be the union management. Unions are super useful sometimes, but like any concentration of power, they get corrupt over time.
- yosefjaved1 5y ago
  Agreed. Unions do get bad and unfair rap. They serve a purpose as an advocate and provide bargaining power for employees in the free market. I feel people forget that unions are organizations, and like all organizations (companies, non-profits, religious orgs, etc), they can be good or bad.
- hoseja 5y ago
  I feel like unions in the US are like everything else in the US: socially engineered up the wazoo, with nary a hint of any stable foundation.
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    Where are you from?
- cjfd 5y ago
  Well, it is not the first time I hear such stories. Not only from the US either. At my own job we sometimes work at unionized places and it is the same everywhere. Horrendously en ridiculously inefficient work practices. It certainly gives me a very negative image of unions.
jgoodhcg 5y ago
Isn't a trade off for some efficiency worth things like living wages, safety, and quality standards at scale?
- derekjdanserl 5y ago
  Especially since no amount of technology has lessened the amount that most of us (especially those doing these jobs being complained about) still have to work to earn a living.
SkeuomorphicBee 5y ago
Non American here, can someone explain to me what is unique about USA society that creates this situations? I mean, most of the world has unions, most countries to a much greater extant than USA, and yet we don't see those horror stories of loss of work efficiency from anywhere else. What is unique about USA unions that drive those?
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Maybe it is just normal in those countries? Each country has things which seem absurd in other countries but are so normal in others as to rarely be discussed.
- jfengel 5y ago
  Unions in the US have to be more defensive, because they're constantly under attack. Unions and management are pitted against each other as enemies, and the only way for the union to protect its members is to make and enforce rules. Each of those rules is in place to protect against some past abuse, and in that hostile environment, they know that flexibility on the rules invites a return of that abuse. Not that everything in Europe is sweetness and light with unions, but they are more widely accepted. That leaves more room for amicable rule-making and flexibility. The anti-union forces in the US, of course, put all of the blame for that on the unions -- which is exactly the kind of hostility that makes it difficult for the unions to negotiate flexible, reasonable contracts.
- xenadu02 5y ago
  Not all unions are like that but some definitely are. Some unions seem to be connected to organized crime or powerful political players and protect their turf very strongly. eg Longshoremen in New York. The union is used as a make-work organization (hire my cousin for a high rate where he barely shows up and I'll fix $X problem for you). A portion of dues goes to political lobbying which gives them political power - eg in California the PG&E Lineman's union is one of the reasons PG&E hasn't been nuked from orbit given how badly they maintain infrastructure and how high their cost for electricity is - Silicon Valley Power charges $0.129c/kWh where a mile down the road PG&E charges $0.28c/kWh-$0.33c/kWh. If they were actually subject to a free market they'd have been liquidated long ago, but the union fights to protect them. Others are more like European unions thus are more reasonable. In the limited times I've worked with IEW union electricians in the bay area they were reasonable people who did good work without any slacking, fake make-work, or outrageous prices.

dr_dshiv 5y ago

Unions get a bad rap. They don’t have to be bad. Everyone should have an incentive for efficiency.

bshipp 5y ago
Its an interesting question. I'm not a union guy and spent my youth working in construction so I've encountered my share of plodding union tradesmen who took remarkably long to do small things that could be finished in a few minutes if you rushed. When I was young and foolish I'd often shake my head at the snails-pace they worked at. I'm older now, and arguably a smidgen wiser. I've reacted with shock at hearing about old acquaintances who have been killed on the job or now endure chronic pain and are no longer able to work. Broken backs, bum knees, busted nerves, missing fingers, the list goes on. The plodding, methodical 55 year-old union guy is looking less and less silly the older I get. In short, perhaps one reason a union might push back against performance-based bonuses is that it often ends up coming at a long-term cost to the worker that is difficult to foresee when you're an invincible 25 year-old trying to make a few extra bucks for the weekend.
- poopypoopington 5y ago
  Say you're laying rail track. It will be used for 50+ years. Better to lay it once, relatively slowly, and well than to do a shoddy quick job and have to repair it every 5 years. Perhaps another argument for the plodding, methodical 55 year-old union guy's way of working?
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    But the union don't recommend things for engineering reasons though, do they? That's not their remit and they don't represent users of the railway or future maintainers of the railway. They represent the employees today. In fact the incentive of the union is shoddier work so they have more work to do late to replace it.
- warble 5y ago
  Worked with unions before - some are definitely better than others and some are really great at their jobs, efficient and good quality work. Some are REALLY bad - all the slow inefficient protectionist BS you hear about, they're definitely out there and it's not because they're more careful about quality. I really don't know the ratio, but in my highly incomplete experience it was about 50/50.. This is purely conjecture, but the real problem to me SEEMS to be the union management. Unions are super useful sometimes, but like any concentration of power, they get corrupt over time.
yosefjaved1 5y ago
Agreed. Unions do get bad and unfair rap. They serve a purpose as an advocate and provide bargaining power for employees in the free market. I feel people forget that unions are organizations, and like all organizations (companies, non-profits, religious orgs, etc), they can be good or bad.
hoseja 5y ago
I feel like unions in the US are like everything else in the US: socially engineered up the wazoo, with nary a hint of any stable foundation.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  Where are you from?
cjfd 5y ago
Well, it is not the first time I hear such stories. Not only from the US either. At my own job we sometimes work at unionized places and it is the same everywhere. Horrendously en ridiculously inefficient work practices. It certainly gives me a very negative image of unions.

jgoodhcg 5y ago

Isn't a trade off for some efficiency worth things like living wages, safety, and quality standards at scale?

derekjdanserl 5y ago
Especially since no amount of technology has lessened the amount that most of us (especially those doing these jobs being complained about) still have to work to earn a living.

SkeuomorphicBee 5y ago

Non American here, can someone explain to me what is unique about USA society that creates this situations? I mean, most of the world has unions, most countries to a much greater extant than USA, and yet we don't see those horror stories of loss of work efficiency from anywhere else. What is unique about USA unions that drive those?

MattGaiser 5y ago
Maybe it is just normal in those countries? Each country has things which seem absurd in other countries but are so normal in others as to rarely be discussed.
jfengel 5y ago
Unions in the US have to be more defensive, because they're constantly under attack. Unions and management are pitted against each other as enemies, and the only way for the union to protect its members is to make and enforce rules. Each of those rules is in place to protect against some past abuse, and in that hostile environment, they know that flexibility on the rules invites a return of that abuse. Not that everything in Europe is sweetness and light with unions, but they are more widely accepted. That leaves more room for amicable rule-making and flexibility. The anti-union forces in the US, of course, put all of the blame for that on the unions -- which is exactly the kind of hostility that makes it difficult for the unions to negotiate flexible, reasonable contracts.
xenadu02 5y ago
Not all unions are like that but some definitely are. Some unions seem to be connected to organized crime or powerful political players and protect their turf very strongly. eg Longshoremen in New York. The union is used as a make-work organization (hire my cousin for a high rate where he barely shows up and I'll fix $X problem for you). A portion of dues goes to political lobbying which gives them political power - eg in California the PG&E Lineman's union is one of the reasons PG&E hasn't been nuked from orbit given how badly they maintain infrastructure and how high their cost for electricity is - Silicon Valley Power charges $0.129c/kWh where a mile down the road PG&E charges $0.28c/kWh-$0.33c/kWh. If they were actually subject to a free market they'd have been liquidated long ago, but the union fights to protect them. Others are more like European unions thus are more reasonable. In the limited times I've worked with IEW union electricians in the bay area they were reasonable people who did good work without any slacking, fake make-work, or outrageous prices.