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No, it's entirely politics and policy. California has an extremely cumbersome legal baggage that drags against public projects. Strong public unions, poorly im

No, it's entirely politics and policy. California has an extremely cumbersome legal baggage that drags against public projects. Strong public unions, poorly implemented environmental protection laws, and a legal code that enables rampant NIMBYism are, IMO, the main limiting factors for Californian growth. We could today pass legislation that circumvented all of this nonsense, and we would see HSR rapidly built across CA. I would guess that for these sorts of projects the actual building part is relatively cheap and simple: it's the endless legal battles, plan changes, and political maneuvering that balloons cost. China doesn't have this problem. If the CCP is unified on some policy, no local protectionist politicians can slow them down.

carabiner 5y ago
Yeah, and I know China + civil rights etc. I wonder what specific civil rights abuses occurred in building their HSR? Was it similar to the US use of eminent domain to acquire land for building the interstate highways? Maybe we should bring that back. I'm seriously in awe of the Chinese government these days. In 30 years, they went from a raw labor and manufacturing country, to landing rovers on Mars. They built new hospitals in days during the pandemic, and will soon be deploying brand new nuclear reactors. They'll probably have a dozen by the time we approve one. In the US, we're having national debates over whether horse dewormer cures COVID. We sound like a laughingstock of irrational, argumentative kids. I can't believe it. I see China had a HSR crash that killed 40. That seems comparable in governmental fuckups to the FAA oversight with the 737 MAX (killed 346).
- geodel 5y ago
  I think the American individual pursuit of happiness is not compatible with Chinese good for society approach. Now it feels good to think that one can combine all the good stuff from different systems and make a best system but somehow it is not possible.
  - danny_codes 5y ago
    I fail to see how these are in contention. Our (American) lack of HSR actually _decreases_ individual choice. Instead of having the extra option of convenient rail connections, we have to suffer through long drives or airport transits. Insofar as public infrastructure enables individual freedom, I believe China is currently out-America-ing America.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      America puts a premium on the freedoms of current landowners. All the land has been allocated already. The price required to obtain the necessary land for nationwide HSR would be a nonstarter in the current legal system. Only a top down system where the individual land owners get less than what they expect like China would make it possible. Even the interstate highway system would not work today. It only worked in the 50s to 80s because it cut through minority neighborhoods who could not afford and did not have the knowledge of being able to use the courts to prevent it without earning top dollar for giving up their land.
      - danny_codes 5y ago
        America _currently_ puts a premium on freedoms of current land owners. However, as land ownership demographics shift I would imagine the political calculus changes in-kind. That being said, the rural-urban divide also divides this issue: rural counties have higher levels of property ownership. Given America's political geography (heavily favoring rural areas), land-use reform will likely take longer to enact, regardless of (urban-driven) necessity for reform. I could see actors at the state level implement measures to more fairly regulate land-use though, so perhaps change could come to more urban states sooner.
- ral82 5y ago
  I am from India and the sheer scale and speed of China's development is astonishing to watch. India as a whole is just a big mess as far as living conditions are concerned. Pre-pandemic, I traveled across the country and it was the same sight pretty much everywhere - squalor, run-down and dirty public utities, streams and rivers filled with sewage and garbage etc. Our rabble-rousing politicans screech nonstop about nonsensical issues and then publish some cooked-up numbers to placate people. These days, I just search for 'china walk' in Youtube and watch videos that show a country that seems to be opposite of what I read in mainstream media. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1sd1imhPbLpJeWRv6798UQ/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1sd1imhPbLpJeWRv6798UQ/vid... https://www.youtube.com/c/WalkEast/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/WalkEast/videos There are plenty of problems in China too, but India is not exactly a shining model regarding human rights...

carabiner 5y ago

Yeah, and I know China + civil rights etc. I wonder what specific civil rights abuses occurred in building their HSR? Was it similar to the US use of eminent domain to acquire land for building the interstate highways? Maybe we should bring that back. I'm seriously in awe of the Chinese government these days. In 30 years, they went from a raw labor and manufacturing country, to landing rovers on Mars. They built new hospitals in days during the pandemic, and will soon be deploying brand new nuclear reactors. They'll probably have a dozen by the time we approve one. In the US, we're having national debates over whether horse dewormer cures COVID. We sound like a laughingstock of irrational, argumentative kids. I can't believe it. I see China had a HSR crash that killed 40. That seems comparable in governmental fuckups to the FAA oversight with the 737 MAX (killed 346).

geodel 5y ago
I think the American individual pursuit of happiness is not compatible with Chinese good for society approach. Now it feels good to think that one can combine all the good stuff from different systems and make a best system but somehow it is not possible.
- danny_codes 5y ago
  I fail to see how these are in contention. Our (American) lack of HSR actually _decreases_ individual choice. Instead of having the extra option of convenient rail connections, we have to suffer through long drives or airport transits. Insofar as public infrastructure enables individual freedom, I believe China is currently out-America-ing America.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    America puts a premium on the freedoms of current landowners. All the land has been allocated already. The price required to obtain the necessary land for nationwide HSR would be a nonstarter in the current legal system. Only a top down system where the individual land owners get less than what they expect like China would make it possible. Even the interstate highway system would not work today. It only worked in the 50s to 80s because it cut through minority neighborhoods who could not afford and did not have the knowledge of being able to use the courts to prevent it without earning top dollar for giving up their land.
    - danny_codes 5y ago
      America _currently_ puts a premium on freedoms of current land owners. However, as land ownership demographics shift I would imagine the political calculus changes in-kind. That being said, the rural-urban divide also divides this issue: rural counties have higher levels of property ownership. Given America's political geography (heavily favoring rural areas), land-use reform will likely take longer to enact, regardless of (urban-driven) necessity for reform. I could see actors at the state level implement measures to more fairly regulate land-use though, so perhaps change could come to more urban states sooner.
ral82 5y ago
I am from India and the sheer scale and speed of China's development is astonishing to watch. India as a whole is just a big mess as far as living conditions are concerned. Pre-pandemic, I traveled across the country and it was the same sight pretty much everywhere - squalor, run-down and dirty public utities, streams and rivers filled with sewage and garbage etc. Our rabble-rousing politicans screech nonstop about nonsensical issues and then publish some cooked-up numbers to placate people. These days, I just search for 'china walk' in Youtube and watch videos that show a country that seems to be opposite of what I read in mainstream media. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1sd1imhPbLpJeWRv6798UQ/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1sd1imhPbLpJeWRv6798UQ/vid... https://www.youtube.com/c/WalkEast/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/WalkEast/videos There are plenty of problems in China too, but India is not exactly a shining model regarding human rights...