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> If self-driving cars ever become a real thing, it's all over for team urbanization. Urbanization is more than just hatred of vehicles - Europe has managed to

by munk-a 5y ago

> If self-driving cars ever become a real thing, it's all over for team urbanization. Urbanization is more than just hatred of vehicles - Europe has managed to development walkable cities where cars are significantly less convenient than other modes of transport - even if the cars are automated they're going to continue to be suboptimal compared to well planned and zoned cities. At the heart of the issue is whether a city is oriented toward foot traffic or optimized for car storage - America leans the latter way and it's pretty darn weird since, outside of the central south (Arizona, Texas and such) - most people would prefer a ten minute walk to five minute drive.

zdragnar 5y ago
> outside of the central south That's an odd take. Most of the northern states (excepting the temperate coastline) get cold enough during the winter that a 5 minute drive is far better than a 10 minute walk. When the polar vortex comes through and it is a windy night, a 10 minute walk is short enough to get frostbite on exposed skin. Then, 90-100 degree summer days aren't uncommon, except the humidity makes them more dangerous because you can sweat all you want, but it wont evaporate to cool you down. Some cities- Minneapolis and St. Paul- have indoor walkways and climate controlled sky bridges for pedestrians, but they're pretty primarily used for business people's lunchtime, since they're fairly limited in where you can actually get to.
criddell 5y ago
> even if the cars are automated they're going to continue to be suboptimal That’s kind of irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what you can convince taxpayers to fund. If self-driving cars become a thing, people will move further and further out of the city. Who cares if they have a 90 minute commute to work if they can eat or sleep or work or play games during that time. Taxpayers will continue to fund big road projects and car storage is going to be more important in the future. Or maybe remote work spreads more to even more jobs and being in a city matters less. People may drive less often and live in a place where they can have (and afford) more space to build exactly the home they want to live in. Lots of us enjoy having room for hobbies like gardening, woodworking, outdoor cooking, etc…
- _dain_ 5y ago
  >Who cares if they have a 90 minute commute to work if they can eat or sleep or work or play games during that time. You can do all that on public transport yet people still prefer shorter commutes.
  - criddell 5y ago
    That's because public transportation, as it's run today, is generally a pretty awful experience. In my own vehicle I'm going point-to-point, I can reroute for coffee or food, I can play the music I want, set the temperature to what I want, etc... Also, a big factor these days, using public transportation puts you in contact with a lot of people and your chances of picking up COVID are higher. Although, maybe by living in a high density area you have to accept greater risk during this and future pandemics. Self-driving vehicles could change a lot of that. Every bus system could morph into something closer to a shared fleet model.
    - munk-a 5y ago
      I don't know how much I believe that car travel is so drastically superior to public transit. Cars are definitely more comfortable, but I still think that most people prefer a moderate walk to a short ride. We do have one thing we can look at as a comparison: trains. People still don't like long train rides where you have pretty convenient access to food and drinks - along with a comfortable temperature and spacious seating.
      - _dain_ 5y ago
        >We do have one thing we can look at as a comparison: trains. People still don't like long train rides where you have pretty convenient access to food and drinks - along with a comfortable temperature and spacious seating. Part of the problem can be frequency. You have to factor in the time spent waiting at the station and changing between trains. If you can just walk to the station and not have to consult a timetable because you know there'll be one coming by within 5-10 minutes, that's a much more attractive proposition than having your whole day ruined because you arrived too late and the next one isn't for 2 hours. It could be the most comfortable train in the world and it wouldn't make up for that inconvenience.

by munk-a 5y ago

zdragnar 5y ago

> outside of the central south That's an odd take. Most of the northern states (excepting the temperate coastline) get cold enough during the winter that a 5 minute drive is far better than a 10 minute walk. When the polar vortex comes through and it is a windy night, a 10 minute walk is short enough to get frostbite on exposed skin. Then, 90-100 degree summer days aren't uncommon, except the humidity makes them more dangerous because you can sweat all you want, but it wont evaporate to cool you down. Some cities- Minneapolis and St. Paul- have indoor walkways and climate controlled sky bridges for pedestrians, but they're pretty primarily used for business people's lunchtime, since they're fairly limited in where you can actually get to.

criddell 5y ago

> even if the cars are automated they're going to continue to be suboptimal That’s kind of irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what you can convince taxpayers to fund. If self-driving cars become a thing, people will move further and further out of the city. Who cares if they have a 90 minute commute to work if they can eat or sleep or work or play games during that time. Taxpayers will continue to fund big road projects and car storage is going to be more important in the future. Or maybe remote work spreads more to even more jobs and being in a city matters less. People may drive less often and live in a place where they can have (and afford) more space to build exactly the home they want to live in. Lots of us enjoy having room for hobbies like gardening, woodworking, outdoor cooking, etc…

_dain_ 5y ago
>Who cares if they have a 90 minute commute to work if they can eat or sleep or work or play games during that time. You can do all that on public transport yet people still prefer shorter commutes.
- criddell 5y ago
  That's because public transportation, as it's run today, is generally a pretty awful experience. In my own vehicle I'm going point-to-point, I can reroute for coffee or food, I can play the music I want, set the temperature to what I want, etc... Also, a big factor these days, using public transportation puts you in contact with a lot of people and your chances of picking up COVID are higher. Although, maybe by living in a high density area you have to accept greater risk during this and future pandemics. Self-driving vehicles could change a lot of that. Every bus system could morph into something closer to a shared fleet model.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    I don't know how much I believe that car travel is so drastically superior to public transit. Cars are definitely more comfortable, but I still think that most people prefer a moderate walk to a short ride. We do have one thing we can look at as a comparison: trains. People still don't like long train rides where you have pretty convenient access to food and drinks - along with a comfortable temperature and spacious seating.
    - _dain_ 5y ago
      >We do have one thing we can look at as a comparison: trains. People still don't like long train rides where you have pretty convenient access to food and drinks - along with a comfortable temperature and spacious seating. Part of the problem can be frequency. You have to factor in the time spent waiting at the station and changing between trains. If you can just walk to the station and not have to consult a timetable because you know there'll be one coming by within 5-10 minutes, that's a much more attractive proposition than having your whole day ruined because you arrived too late and the next one isn't for 2 hours. It could be the most comfortable train in the world and it wouldn't make up for that inconvenience.