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None of us have any real agency, and the sooner we admit that the sooner we can start truly analyzing cause and effect of behaviors. We need to stop lying to ou

None of us have any real agency, and the sooner we admit that the sooner we can start truly analyzing cause and effect of behaviors. We need to stop lying to ourselves if we want to truly enact change Free will is an illusion

s1artibartfast 5y ago
I fully agree that free will is an illusion, but I don't think this negates my position. Even a fully deterministic computer takes input/instructions and completes actions. Humans are complex logic engines with programing. They can be programed to need external input to take an action, or take actions without external input. You can program a child to think they need permission to go to the bathroom, or to think they can get up and go without permission. You can program an addict to think they helpless to resist a drug, or that they can resist the urge and stop. In this sense, humans can be programed with logic that either helps them achieve their goals, or prevents them from doing so. Human "agency", "willpower", and "control" is simply shifting a person's program to take actions less on environmental inputs based more on their core values (e.g happiness - also programed). I think that telling humans that they are helpless to control their behavior and need outside input is bad programing which harms their outcomes. People overestimate the helplessness and dependence on circumstance. It is better to program people to act with more self control.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Admitting we are powerless allows us to investigate and change the factors that truly lie behind the behavior Take obesity for example, do we know why so many people have gained so much weight? If I were to judge what I think your opinion might be from your response so far, it would be purely that people are eating too much. So what causes that behavior? Do people just eat as much as the person next to them? Eat as much as their parents? Do they eat what's available and that just happens to be highly reinforcing (salt, simple sugars, fats) and easily available? Are there hormonal signaling pathways that control feeding behavior? Maybe there are environmental factors, such as hormone disruptors that weren't there 100 years ago? Is there a high prevalence of genetic disorders relating to weight control and feeding behaviors? There may be multiple causes, and some may overlap. Also this puts far too much on the end consumer, when there are also emergent patterns that come from behaviors of businesses and markets such as locations of grocery stores and stock in those stores. All of this, all of us. We are all part of the same system and we should not attempt to place blame on any certain part when there are many many contributing factors. We should attempt to figure out which parts need to be adjusted and how, and its never going to be only one thing such as the agency of the individual. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    First off, I am not trying to assign blame, or condemnation, only causality >Admitting we are powerless allows us to investigate and change the factors that truly lie behind the behavior I couldn't disagree more. I am all for scientific investigations but think that behavior psychology is vastly under evaluated relative to environmental or biological priming. >Take obesity for example, do we know why so many people have gained so much weight? If I were to judge what I think your opinion might be from your response so far, it would be purely that people are eating too much. People are eating to many calories, this is irrefutable. We can discuss why they are eating too many calories, which is the more nuanced question <We are all part of the same system and we should not attempt to place blame on any certain part when there are many many contributing factors. We should attempt to figure out which parts need to be adjusted and how, and its never going to be only one thing such as the agency of the individual. This reads as self contradiction to me: "There are many contributing factors but we should not assign blame" vs "We should attempt to figure out which parts need to be adjusted" Figuring out which part of the system is the cause is how one decides what needs to be adjusted. You can not ignore the psychological decision making process. Why one person has self control, and another does not. To say that the perception of agency of the individual is out of scope is ridiculous to me. Actualizing one's own agency was crucial for every addict, obese person, or depressed person I have ever known.
    - quinnjh 5y ago
      Chiming in to say i appreciated both of your takes and i think we have a vital necessity for both approaches. The issue at hand seems rather bicameral.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        Thanks, I kinda assumed it was just the two of us left in the thread.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

I fully agree that free will is an illusion, but I don't think this negates my position. Even a fully deterministic computer takes input/instructions and completes actions. Humans are complex logic engines with programing. They can be programed to need external input to take an action, or take actions without external input. You can program a child to think they need permission to go to the bathroom, or to think they can get up and go without permission. You can program an addict to think they helpless to resist a drug, or that they can resist the urge and stop. In this sense, humans can be programed with logic that either helps them achieve their goals, or prevents them from doing so. Human "agency", "willpower", and "control" is simply shifting a person's program to take actions less on environmental inputs based more on their core values (e.g happiness - also programed). I think that telling humans that they are helpless to control their behavior and need outside input is bad programing which harms their outcomes. People overestimate the helplessness and dependence on circumstance. It is better to program people to act with more self control.

netizen-936824 5y ago
Admitting we are powerless allows us to investigate and change the factors that truly lie behind the behavior Take obesity for example, do we know why so many people have gained so much weight? If I were to judge what I think your opinion might be from your response so far, it would be purely that people are eating too much. So what causes that behavior? Do people just eat as much as the person next to them? Eat as much as their parents? Do they eat what's available and that just happens to be highly reinforcing (salt, simple sugars, fats) and easily available? Are there hormonal signaling pathways that control feeding behavior? Maybe there are environmental factors, such as hormone disruptors that weren't there 100 years ago? Is there a high prevalence of genetic disorders relating to weight control and feeding behaviors? There may be multiple causes, and some may overlap. Also this puts far too much on the end consumer, when there are also emergent patterns that come from behaviors of businesses and markets such as locations of grocery stores and stock in those stores. All of this, all of us. We are all part of the same system and we should not attempt to place blame on any certain part when there are many many contributing factors. We should attempt to figure out which parts need to be adjusted and how, and its never going to be only one thing such as the agency of the individual. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  First off, I am not trying to assign blame, or condemnation, only causality >Admitting we are powerless allows us to investigate and change the factors that truly lie behind the behavior I couldn't disagree more. I am all for scientific investigations but think that behavior psychology is vastly under evaluated relative to environmental or biological priming. >Take obesity for example, do we know why so many people have gained so much weight? If I were to judge what I think your opinion might be from your response so far, it would be purely that people are eating too much. People are eating to many calories, this is irrefutable. We can discuss why they are eating too many calories, which is the more nuanced question <We are all part of the same system and we should not attempt to place blame on any certain part when there are many many contributing factors. We should attempt to figure out which parts need to be adjusted and how, and its never going to be only one thing such as the agency of the individual. This reads as self contradiction to me: "There are many contributing factors but we should not assign blame" vs "We should attempt to figure out which parts need to be adjusted" Figuring out which part of the system is the cause is how one decides what needs to be adjusted. You can not ignore the psychological decision making process. Why one person has self control, and another does not. To say that the perception of agency of the individual is out of scope is ridiculous to me. Actualizing one's own agency was crucial for every addict, obese person, or depressed person I have ever known.
  - quinnjh 5y ago
    Chiming in to say i appreciated both of your takes and i think we have a vital necessity for both approaches. The issue at hand seems rather bicameral.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      Thanks, I kinda assumed it was just the two of us left in the thread.