3 ms·

>Most people would rather be able to afford food, clothes, a home, electronic, entertainment, etc, than they would the ability to be critical. The Chinese 'mid

>Most people would rather be able to afford food, clothes, a home, electronic, entertainment, etc, than they would the ability to be critical. The Chinese 'middle class' standard of medical care ( on average, a lot cheaper but it's also a very basic level of care), financial security, air / water / consumer good safety, access to meaningful education, and freedom of worship / speech / congregation of all types is well under what is typical for a middle class citizen in a western democracy, even including the united states. At around $20,000 USD per year (approx boundary of China's upper middle class) you're in the same general territory as Russia.

vkou 5y ago
The difference is that Russia has been stuck in that quagmire for 30 years[1], whereas in China, most of those people would have been impoverished rural poor, 30 years ago. When you have observed a colossal material improvement in your life, and you have hope for the future, you can overlook a lot of problems with governance. [1] Yes, yes, Moscow is not an active disaster zone. Russia does not begin and end in Moscow, though.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > When you have observed a colossal material improvement in your life, and you have hope for the future, you can overlook a lot of problems with governance. It has been long believed to work the other way: Poor people don't have the education or resources to deal with governmance; they are trying to survive, working three jobs (if they can get them), etc. When the middle class expands is typically when democracy blooms.
  - vkou 5y ago
    Democracy doesn't bloom when the middle class expands. Democracy is just one possible outcome of political upheaval - and political upheaval happens when the middle class feels that their situation is hopeless. Russia's 'middle class' expanded massively since the economic disaster of the 90s, but I would not describe it as being more democratic today than it was in 1995. A rising middle class isn't why communism fell apart in the 80s, either. It fell apart because the country lost any faith that the system will bring future prosperity.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      I didn't say that it happened automatically.

vkou 5y ago

The difference is that Russia has been stuck in that quagmire for 30 years[1], whereas in China, most of those people would have been impoverished rural poor, 30 years ago. When you have observed a colossal material improvement in your life, and you have hope for the future, you can overlook a lot of problems with governance. [1] Yes, yes, Moscow is not an active disaster zone. Russia does not begin and end in Moscow, though.

wolverine876 5y ago
> When you have observed a colossal material improvement in your life, and you have hope for the future, you can overlook a lot of problems with governance. It has been long believed to work the other way: Poor people don't have the education or resources to deal with governmance; they are trying to survive, working three jobs (if they can get them), etc. When the middle class expands is typically when democracy blooms.
- vkou 5y ago
  Democracy doesn't bloom when the middle class expands. Democracy is just one possible outcome of political upheaval - and political upheaval happens when the middle class feels that their situation is hopeless. Russia's 'middle class' expanded massively since the economic disaster of the 90s, but I would not describe it as being more democratic today than it was in 1995. A rising middle class isn't why communism fell apart in the 80s, either. It fell apart because the country lost any faith that the system will bring future prosperity.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    I didn't say that it happened automatically.