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> “But if you don’t test for it, it’s like it doesn’t exist.” This is exactly it. During our house purchasing process, our state gives you the so-called right

by bmitc 5y ago

> “But if you don’t test for it, it’s like it doesn’t exist.” This is exactly it. During our house purchasing process, our state gives you the so-called right to know if lead exists in a house. But all a seller has to do is check on the form that they have no knowledge of lead in the house. The house could literally be filled with it on the walls, door jams, windows, but if they check "we're not sure", then both them and the state have washed their hands of the issue. So basically, you need to test for yourself. Meanwhile, the state has covered their ass by providing the requirement of the disclosure, even though the disclosure is completely worthless. The same goes for radon testing. And it's practically impossible to get an offer accepted if you do not waive your right to test for lead and radon before purchasing. It's just irritating to me that industries and the government go through all this trouble to do nothing but cover their ass and stop right before they do something that would actually help the issue in the real world. Additionally, nearly all of the stuff you do when purchasing a house protects somebody else except you as a buyer. It's amazing to me that there aren't stricter requirements, standards for testing, and regulations around testing for lead and radon, two things that are easy to test for but have seriously adverse health effects. Also, it's surprising just how much stuff still has lead in it. When I was researching ideas for a compost bin in my backyard, many suggested wire mesh (aka chicken wire, wire cloth, etc.). However, I found out that the galvanizing process leaves a fair amount of lead on the wire, which could then leach into the resulting compost, then the ground the compost is used on, and then your garden vegetables. Just touching the stuff at the store now means you have lead dust on your hands. Even researching what soldering wire to use is a pain because apparently leaded solder is just so much "better" when it comes to flowing than non-leaded. It just doesn't seem to be taken that seriously at the hobbyist level (whereas my understanding is that industrial processes already have switched to non-leaded solder). I get that it's easier to use, but what about when kids or pets are around, or you forget to wash your hands, or when disposing of it?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mindslight 5y ago
> But all a seller has to do is check on the form that they have no knowledge of lead in the house. The house could literally be filled with it on the walls, door jams, windows, but if they check "we're not sure", then both them and the state have washed their hands of the issue You're using moralizing language, but what else do you think could happen here? Barring government funding, by-the-book remediation costs a lot of money. So the two options are either completely remediating the lead and offer that as a selling point, or just kicking the can down the road ("I don't know but it was painted before 1978 so make your own informed guess"). If the seller checked the box for positive existence of lead, they would be doing you no favors since you'd be getting the exact same physical house, but would also have to check the known-lead box when selling the house down the line. If you only want to buy a house that has been fully remediated, you could make your offer contingent upon that. But since your offer has to be competitive with the rest of the market, that would cost a similar amount to buying the house as it is and then doing your own remediation afterwards. If you go to rent that house out and the renters have small kids, then you can no longer kick the can down the road. It makes for a painful immediate situation, but barring government funded remediation or straight up mandating that every bit of lead paint needs to be remediated before a house can be sold (despite it being fine for the majority of people), I don't see how else it could be handled.
- newaccount74 5y ago
  The problem is that there is an incentive to not check. But the state could easily change that. The state could introduce a law where the seller must cover remediation costs if lead is discovered after the sale. Then sellers would have an incentive to check for lead contamination ahead of the sale.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  > what else do you think could happen here? The seller could actually care about the health of the fellow human being they're doing business with. > proper remediation costs a lot of money So what? Not doing it means harming other people. That's criminal negligence.
  - 5y ago
throwaway946513 5y ago
Only once have I physically encountered leaded solder, and immediately wrapped it up with the lead-acid batteries I had to take to hazardous waste in my city. I always try to reduce the exposure I have for myself if at all possible. My family's house was built in the 80's and we've ensured that there's no leaded paint on the house or water pipes on the property.
bluGill 5y ago
Every realtor has told me not to test for lead paint. If the house is older it has it, so if you test you have to check the box and then the new buyer will make you do something about it. If you don't test though you can remain ignorant. Every house I've lived in has been painted a few times since lead paint was common, which covers up the problem. Getting rid of lead paint is possible, but not really affordable.
belval 5y ago
> Even researching what soldering wire to use is a pain because apparently leaded solder is just so much "better" when it comes to flowing than non-leaded. It just doesn't seem to be taken that seriously at the hobbyist level (whereas my understanding is that industrial processes already have switched to non-leaded solder). I get that it's easier to use, but what about when kids or pets are around, or you forget to wash your hands, or when disposing of it? I guess I fit in the hobbyist you mention here so I'll try to chime in and explain. I use lead solder for my drone repairs and a few small home automation projects. Lead solder is not really dangerous at a hobbyist scale because the usages are spaced enough that even if you weren't washing your hands each month after soldering the measurable lead in your (or people around you) blood stream wouldn't be anywhere near worrying. In a way it's similar to asbestos, while it's 100% bad, the mere fact of studying in a room that has asbestos in the ventilation probably won't have an impact on your health. It's the longer exposure of say a teacher that worked 30 years in that environment that's much more dangerous. There is also the tradeoff of non-leaded solder wire that needs higher temperatures. To compensate you would need to use more flux and that flux is a significant threat to your lungs.
- bmitc 5y ago
  > There is also the tradeoff of non-leaded solder wire that needs higher temperatures. To compensate you would need to use more flux and that flux is a significant threat to your lungs. From what I've read, I did learn that this is an issue. I'm trying to get a setup going at home, and I've been debating on what to do. I know the lead solder can be mitigated and issues only come from handling it (and not breathing it in), but it gets tougher with things I can't control like kids and pets. Also, what do you do with the parts you've soldered? Does handling these not expose you to lead? I think disposal is still an issue. I think part of my lament is that there just isn't a lot of pressure to find better solder materials for non-industrial use. I'm assuming industrial use has solved problems. Although I can be careful with lead solder at home, it still feels wrong to be buying it and then disposing of it, even through the proper recycling/disposal channels. Lastly, I actually didn't realize until recently that solder had such significant lead portions in it (if I did, I forgot), which means that all the times I handled it at work (admittedly infrequent) was done without that knowledge. That's on me, but that was part of my point that it's in things that may not be clear to people.
DanBC 5y ago
>Even researching what soldering wire to use is a pain because apparently leaded solder is just so much "better" when it comes to flowing than non-leaded. This used to be true (I remember having to grind through many different solders on different boards for work and they sucked compared to the Multicore 60/40 5 core rosin fluxed solder), but modern alloys are pretty good. Whatever you're using you must use ventilation too, so the comments about flux are already answered. I feel that there's a much wider range of soldering tasks that solder has to cope with now. In the past hobbyists had single or dual layer PCBs with big pads and through hole components, or stranded wire and big connector buckets. But now we have tiny surface mount components on tiny pads, or a big FET on a 12 layer board with a big ground plane. If it's something you're doing at work you get used to the feel of it and can set your iron station up accordingly, but if you're a hobbyist you don't get that practice and set up time.
bcrosby95 5y ago
I don't understand why people wouldn't bother testing for radon - the mitigation systems tend to be cheap when compared to getting rid of lead, which might involve tearing out all your drywall.

by bmitc 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mindslight 5y ago

> But all a seller has to do is check on the form that they have no knowledge of lead in the house. The house could literally be filled with it on the walls, door jams, windows, but if they check "we're not sure", then both them and the state have washed their hands of the issue You're using moralizing language, but what else do you think could happen here? Barring government funding, by-the-book remediation costs a lot of money. So the two options are either completely remediating the lead and offer that as a selling point, or just kicking the can down the road ("I don't know but it was painted before 1978 so make your own informed guess"). If the seller checked the box for positive existence of lead, they would be doing you no favors since you'd be getting the exact same physical house, but would also have to check the known-lead box when selling the house down the line. If you only want to buy a house that has been fully remediated, you could make your offer contingent upon that. But since your offer has to be competitive with the rest of the market, that would cost a similar amount to buying the house as it is and then doing your own remediation afterwards. If you go to rent that house out and the renters have small kids, then you can no longer kick the can down the road. It makes for a painful immediate situation, but barring government funded remediation or straight up mandating that every bit of lead paint needs to be remediated before a house can be sold (despite it being fine for the majority of people), I don't see how else it could be handled.

newaccount74 5y ago
The problem is that there is an incentive to not check. But the state could easily change that. The state could introduce a law where the seller must cover remediation costs if lead is discovered after the sale. Then sellers would have an incentive to check for lead contamination ahead of the sale.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
> what else do you think could happen here? The seller could actually care about the health of the fellow human being they're doing business with. > proper remediation costs a lot of money So what? Not doing it means harming other people. That's criminal negligence.
- 5y ago

throwaway946513 5y ago

Only once have I physically encountered leaded solder, and immediately wrapped it up with the lead-acid batteries I had to take to hazardous waste in my city. I always try to reduce the exposure I have for myself if at all possible. My family's house was built in the 80's and we've ensured that there's no leaded paint on the house or water pipes on the property.

bluGill 5y ago

Every realtor has told me not to test for lead paint. If the house is older it has it, so if you test you have to check the box and then the new buyer will make you do something about it. If you don't test though you can remain ignorant. Every house I've lived in has been painted a few times since lead paint was common, which covers up the problem. Getting rid of lead paint is possible, but not really affordable.

belval 5y ago

> Even researching what soldering wire to use is a pain because apparently leaded solder is just so much "better" when it comes to flowing than non-leaded. It just doesn't seem to be taken that seriously at the hobbyist level (whereas my understanding is that industrial processes already have switched to non-leaded solder). I get that it's easier to use, but what about when kids or pets are around, or you forget to wash your hands, or when disposing of it? I guess I fit in the hobbyist you mention here so I'll try to chime in and explain. I use lead solder for my drone repairs and a few small home automation projects. Lead solder is not really dangerous at a hobbyist scale because the usages are spaced enough that even if you weren't washing your hands each month after soldering the measurable lead in your (or people around you) blood stream wouldn't be anywhere near worrying. In a way it's similar to asbestos, while it's 100% bad, the mere fact of studying in a room that has asbestos in the ventilation probably won't have an impact on your health. It's the longer exposure of say a teacher that worked 30 years in that environment that's much more dangerous. There is also the tradeoff of non-leaded solder wire that needs higher temperatures. To compensate you would need to use more flux and that flux is a significant threat to your lungs.

bmitc 5y ago
> There is also the tradeoff of non-leaded solder wire that needs higher temperatures. To compensate you would need to use more flux and that flux is a significant threat to your lungs. From what I've read, I did learn that this is an issue. I'm trying to get a setup going at home, and I've been debating on what to do. I know the lead solder can be mitigated and issues only come from handling it (and not breathing it in), but it gets tougher with things I can't control like kids and pets. Also, what do you do with the parts you've soldered? Does handling these not expose you to lead? I think disposal is still an issue. I think part of my lament is that there just isn't a lot of pressure to find better solder materials for non-industrial use. I'm assuming industrial use has solved problems. Although I can be careful with lead solder at home, it still feels wrong to be buying it and then disposing of it, even through the proper recycling/disposal channels. Lastly, I actually didn't realize until recently that solder had such significant lead portions in it (if I did, I forgot), which means that all the times I handled it at work (admittedly infrequent) was done without that knowledge. That's on me, but that was part of my point that it's in things that may not be clear to people.

DanBC 5y ago

>Even researching what soldering wire to use is a pain because apparently leaded solder is just so much "better" when it comes to flowing than non-leaded. This used to be true (I remember having to grind through many different solders on different boards for work and they sucked compared to the Multicore 60/40 5 core rosin fluxed solder), but modern alloys are pretty good. Whatever you're using you must use ventilation too, so the comments about flux are already answered. I feel that there's a much wider range of soldering tasks that solder has to cope with now. In the past hobbyists had single or dual layer PCBs with big pads and through hole components, or stranded wire and big connector buckets. But now we have tiny surface mount components on tiny pads, or a big FET on a 12 layer board with a big ground plane. If it's something you're doing at work you get used to the feel of it and can set your iron station up accordingly, but if you're a hobbyist you don't get that practice and set up time.

bcrosby95 5y ago

I don't understand why people wouldn't bother testing for radon - the mitigation systems tend to be cheap when compared to getting rid of lead, which might involve tearing out all your drywall.