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I have a different take. Americans dislike government intervention because they don't trust the government due to corruption and being so easily manipulated by

I have a different take. Americans dislike government intervention because they don't trust the government due to corruption and being so easily manipulated by corporate interests. Fix that instead of granting government more power to wield its corruption.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
That is a lazy take. Americans are the government. By claiming that the government is corrupt, the implication is that you and your fellow Americans are corrupt. The solution has to be getting involved in governance, from local to state to even federal levels depending on your abilities. Which is unfortunate because there is still a salvageable amount of cohesion and trust in US society (free and fair elections, mostly good people with good intentions not explicitly seeking bribes, etc). At least, on a global stage, we are still in a relatively good spot.
- nickpp 5y ago
  It’s first principles reasoning: the only motivation for politicians to become politicians is gaining advantages they can’t obtain in the private sector. And since administration jobs don’t pay that well, corruption it is.
- newbamboo 5y ago
  “your fellow Americans are corrupt” Yes! They are. And lead is the main culprit. Tv and sugar didn’t help.
- mandmandam 5y ago
  I honestly don't think any of that optimism is remotely warranted. And Americans are certainly very, very disconnected from the actual political sausage factory, thanks to corrupt media and corrupt law - why would you give them a pass here? I'm shocked that so many Americans are so blind to so much rot. You can smell it in the air. Even the Democrats are seemingly fine with executive orders, the Patriot Act, black sites, extrajudicial killings of American and other friendly nations citizens, smearing and torturing whistleblowers like Assange and Donziger. "On a global stage", America is seen as the number one threat to democracy and world peace, and has consistently been seen as such since Afghanistan. It's wild that Americans don't ever seem to grasp how they are seen abroad.
- colpabar 5y ago
  And yours is a naive take. Money wins elections in America, and regular people who would benefit from such regulations do not have enough compared to the industries fighting against it.
yongjik 5y ago
In other countries, when the government is corrupt, people get outraged and call for reform. In America, when the government is corrupt, people say "Well it's the government, what did you expect?" America is like this because corrupt corporations spread the meme that the government is always corrupt, lest those pesky people demand that the government actually do something to those corporations.
- unclebucknasty 5y ago
  With all of the arguments about government, elected officials have managed to divert attention from the two reforms that matter most: campaign finance and term limits. Disastrous rulings like Citizens United, which further codified direct avenues to further government capture should still have people in the streets. These two reforms would absolutely overhaul our system, greatly diminish corruption, and restore democracy. But, you rarely even hear them discussed.
- colpabar 5y ago
  Any popular movement to address corruption would immediately be decreed a "dangerous conspiracy theory" and demonized by the mainstream media. Any politician would be excluded from mainstream debates. And even if they could get into office, they would be totally unable to do anything, because the rest of the system would be against them. I know this sounds like more of "well it's the government, what did you expect?" But my point is that the American government is rotten to its core and it's going to take _a lot_ to undo it. In other countries there is sometimes violent revolution, but we consider that unspeakable here.
  - scohesc 5y ago
    With the number of firearms scattered around the USA, ripe for the taking (according to the media) - I'm surprised the proverbial nut hasn't been tightened enough for the bolt to shear - yet. (I am not condoning or encouraging violence in any way with this comment)
  - yongjik 5y ago
    Compared to most of the world, America's government system is still very competent and accountable. Think about highways, OSHA, FAA, NASA, etc. I'd certainly not call it "rotten to the core." Other countries' citizens rage not because they have it better than America - they rage because (usually) they have it worse! But calling it fundamentally corrupt serves as self-fulfilling prophecy, because once citizens internalize the concept that the government is corrupt and nothing can be done (short of an armed revolution), then of course nothing can be done - because even in the most pessimistic scenario America will still take a generation before an armed revolution would look palatable. It sets up the false dichotomy between "uprooting the society and everyone's lives in it" vs. "doing nothing and saying that nothing can be done."
watwut 5y ago
I dont think so. It this would be true, the same Americans would be for interventions that go against corporate interests.
- nightski 5y ago
  Do you have evidence they are not? Because in my (albeit small) circle there is not a single person I know that does not want to restrict money flowing to politicians and/or their campaigns from corporations (even indirectly through paid for advertisements and the like). Everyone wants to crack down on this, but legislators have no incentive to do so.
Barrin92 5y ago
The causality is the other way around. Because Americans distrust their government it is easily hobbled. It's open to corruption because it's too weak, not to strong. The US has an usual degree of openness when it comes to the political process. Directly elected representatives, local politics, everything is broadcasted to the public, everything's open to money, and so forth. This kind of openness enables lobbying, it creates the opportunity to influence elected officials, which is considered a feature because it looks superficially 'democratic', but in reality just aids oligarchic interest groups. The way to fix it is literally give more power to the US government, in particular the executive and regulatory bodies and shield them from outside influence, so they can do their job. This debate also has an analog on the other side of the political spectrum, namely policing. The US police is not unusually violent because it's too strong but too weak, because there is too much symmetry between force wielded by citizens and force wielded by authority.
tremon 5y ago
How do you fix corruption without giving government the power to fight corruption?

lotsofpulp 5y ago

That is a lazy take. Americans are the government. By claiming that the government is corrupt, the implication is that you and your fellow Americans are corrupt. The solution has to be getting involved in governance, from local to state to even federal levels depending on your abilities. Which is unfortunate because there is still a salvageable amount of cohesion and trust in US society (free and fair elections, mostly good people with good intentions not explicitly seeking bribes, etc). At least, on a global stage, we are still in a relatively good spot.

nickpp 5y ago
It’s first principles reasoning: the only motivation for politicians to become politicians is gaining advantages they can’t obtain in the private sector. And since administration jobs don’t pay that well, corruption it is.
newbamboo 5y ago
“your fellow Americans are corrupt” Yes! They are. And lead is the main culprit. Tv and sugar didn’t help.
mandmandam 5y ago
I honestly don't think any of that optimism is remotely warranted. And Americans are certainly very, very disconnected from the actual political sausage factory, thanks to corrupt media and corrupt law - why would you give them a pass here? I'm shocked that so many Americans are so blind to so much rot. You can smell it in the air. Even the Democrats are seemingly fine with executive orders, the Patriot Act, black sites, extrajudicial killings of American and other friendly nations citizens, smearing and torturing whistleblowers like Assange and Donziger. "On a global stage", America is seen as the number one threat to democracy and world peace, and has consistently been seen as such since Afghanistan. It's wild that Americans don't ever seem to grasp how they are seen abroad.
colpabar 5y ago
And yours is a naive take. Money wins elections in America, and regular people who would benefit from such regulations do not have enough compared to the industries fighting against it.

yongjik 5y ago

In other countries, when the government is corrupt, people get outraged and call for reform. In America, when the government is corrupt, people say "Well it's the government, what did you expect?" America is like this because corrupt corporations spread the meme that the government is always corrupt, lest those pesky people demand that the government actually do something to those corporations.

unclebucknasty 5y ago
With all of the arguments about government, elected officials have managed to divert attention from the two reforms that matter most: campaign finance and term limits. Disastrous rulings like Citizens United, which further codified direct avenues to further government capture should still have people in the streets. These two reforms would absolutely overhaul our system, greatly diminish corruption, and restore democracy. But, you rarely even hear them discussed.
colpabar 5y ago
Any popular movement to address corruption would immediately be decreed a "dangerous conspiracy theory" and demonized by the mainstream media. Any politician would be excluded from mainstream debates. And even if they could get into office, they would be totally unable to do anything, because the rest of the system would be against them. I know this sounds like more of "well it's the government, what did you expect?" But my point is that the American government is rotten to its core and it's going to take _a lot_ to undo it. In other countries there is sometimes violent revolution, but we consider that unspeakable here.
- scohesc 5y ago
  With the number of firearms scattered around the USA, ripe for the taking (according to the media) - I'm surprised the proverbial nut hasn't been tightened enough for the bolt to shear - yet. (I am not condoning or encouraging violence in any way with this comment)
- yongjik 5y ago
  Compared to most of the world, America's government system is still very competent and accountable. Think about highways, OSHA, FAA, NASA, etc. I'd certainly not call it "rotten to the core." Other countries' citizens rage not because they have it better than America - they rage because (usually) they have it worse! But calling it fundamentally corrupt serves as self-fulfilling prophecy, because once citizens internalize the concept that the government is corrupt and nothing can be done (short of an armed revolution), then of course nothing can be done - because even in the most pessimistic scenario America will still take a generation before an armed revolution would look palatable. It sets up the false dichotomy between "uprooting the society and everyone's lives in it" vs. "doing nothing and saying that nothing can be done."

watwut 5y ago

I dont think so. It this would be true, the same Americans would be for interventions that go against corporate interests.

nightski 5y ago
Do you have evidence they are not? Because in my (albeit small) circle there is not a single person I know that does not want to restrict money flowing to politicians and/or their campaigns from corporations (even indirectly through paid for advertisements and the like). Everyone wants to crack down on this, but legislators have no incentive to do so.

Barrin92 5y ago

The causality is the other way around. Because Americans distrust their government it is easily hobbled. It's open to corruption because it's too weak, not to strong. The US has an usual degree of openness when it comes to the political process. Directly elected representatives, local politics, everything is broadcasted to the public, everything's open to money, and so forth. This kind of openness enables lobbying, it creates the opportunity to influence elected officials, which is considered a feature because it looks superficially 'democratic', but in reality just aids oligarchic interest groups. The way to fix it is literally give more power to the US government, in particular the executive and regulatory bodies and shield them from outside influence, so they can do their job. This debate also has an analog on the other side of the political spectrum, namely policing. The US police is not unusually violent because it's too strong but too weak, because there is too much symmetry between force wielded by citizens and force wielded by authority.

tremon 5y ago

How do you fix corruption without giving government the power to fight corruption?