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I had a horrible experience recently due to a demolition of a 1930s house just a dozen feet away from dozen feet away from our home. I have 3 kids 10 or under,

I had a horrible experience recently due to a demolition of a 1930s house just a dozen feet away from dozen feet away from our home. I have 3 kids 10 or under, 1 aged 2. The home's exterior was covered in lead paint, probably all original. The contractors doing the job were completely ignorant of the dangers of lead, and did not follow the basic EPA guidelines (e.g. laying down plastic, picking up paint chips, paint chips scattering into our yard, etc). It was basically an illegal operation. We kept mentioning the problem to them, but you could tell they were ignorant of the dangers. The general contractors quote was "I'd be doing this the same if it was my daughter in your house". Anyway, I printed out the EPA guidelines, shouted them down when they fired up the back hoe that they were in violation of federal law. Luckily that stalled them for the day it took the city to get out to the site and shut it down. Now the GC was no idiot, but his general attitude was that we were overblowing the problem. When they resumed work, plastic was laid down, they picked up the paint chips, but none of the workers wore masks. If I didn't aggressively take action, nothing would have been done.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Anyway, I printed out the EPA guidelines, shouted them down when they fired up the back hoe that they were in violation of federal law. When in doubt, call up your city's code enforcement office. They love showing up to work sites and catching contractors violating code. And the contractors will listen, too.
- afandian 5y ago
  A someone outside of the US (and who never quite understood the state/federal divide!), I'm really curious about what state regulatory enforcement is in now. It seemed [0] that the recent Republican government aimed to make as much damage as possible to these safety nets. Are they still there and functional? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_Donald_Trump_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_Do...
  - Wohlf 5y ago
    The states and larger cities have their own sets of regulations and enforcement agencies so it's not a simple question, but as best I can tell COVID restrictions and hiring issues have been a bigger blow to regulatory enforcement than the past administration, any changes they made would be marginal in comparison and are likely already undone by the new administration.
    - xapata 5y ago
      It's not easy to hire good staff when budgets are cut.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    > who never quite understood the state/federal divide This is key. The states in the US hold a huge amount of the actual power. As a practical matter the EPA will never be involved with something like this. It will be the state DEQ (or equivalent agency) that really has the teeth.
  - cogman10 5y ago
    The original intent of the US foundation was that state be ran like nations are ran in the EU. That is, for the most part they are independent with a federal government that makes sure everyone plays nice. That all changed with the civil war and the 14th amendment. After that, the federal government gained a LOT of power that it didn't previously have. However, it's not something that was universal. In the US, federal still, for the most part, only deals with things that can be conceived to effect more than one state at the same time. There is, for example, no federal murder law. With that in mind, you have 50 states and for the most part, how the little things are handled are entirely up to each state. What a state will do in regards to regulations and safety nets is simply all over the board.
    - danlugo92 5y ago
      From a non american viewpoint, I find it impressive that states like Florida and Texas have been able to do away with covid restrictions independently of all other states.
derekpankaew 5y ago
They just got a slap on the wrist? It seems like there should be much heavier penalties for spreading a neurotoxin ... ...
motohagiography 5y ago
Would lead paints have a relatively unique RF refractive signature? Wondering if flying a drone with some wave guides could inventory buidlings with external lead paint, and then use the data for permitting to require additional environmental controls.
- ch4s3 5y ago
  You really only need to know the age of the building to know if it has lead paint, generally.
  - giardini 5y ago
    Here's a link if you're worried: "Lead Paint – What Years Did They Use It?": https://buyersask.com/education-center/lead-paint-what-years-did-they-use-it/ https://buyersask.com/education-center/lead-paint-what-years...
    - bcrosby95 5y ago
      Note that every contractor I've spoken to assumes anything built before 1978 has lead paint. My understanding is that it's probably going to be more expensive to test every spot you need to test for lead paint vs just treating it as if it is lead paint in the first place.
  - tdumitrescu 5y ago
    If it _had_ lead paint. Could have been scraped and repainted later.
    - ch4s3 5y ago
      Scraping and repainting alone won't remove the lead. You need to do actual remediation. In some places there would be records of permits for that.
- mint2 5y ago
  The lead paint generally has been painted over multiple times, so the surface would be modern paint with the lead underneath.
wnevets 5y ago
>but his general attitude was that we were overblowing the problem. I've had similar experience when talking with contractors about it. I've been told multiple times that unless a child eats a handful everyday its not a problem.
RankingMember 5y ago
This is super common in my experience: contractors pretending to be ignorant of safety regulations to speed up work.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
CapitalistCartr 5y ago
I'd love to see a massive project to test every child in the nation. It's hard to plan without good data. Once we know who is the worst off, we can better protect everyone. Of course, property owners have massive political clout, and they don't want to find any problems.
- greedo 5y ago
  I'll believe that when I see it. We can't even test for a virus that's killing 400K/year. Nor can we provide safe drinking water for a city that's been stuck with crappy water for years and well publicized to boot.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Universal testing is very expensive and provides minimal additional data. That's not an argument for no surveillance, it's an argument for reasonable surveillance. Modern statistics is based around the principle of random sampling for very good reasons: it works. With a small but properly-conducted and truly random sample, you'll gain a tremendous level of insight over a large domain. The additional resolution increases with the square of the sample size. If you want twice the resolution you need four times the sample. Expanding a sample 10x only buys about 3.3x reduction in error. But your costs are up 10x. In the case of environmental toxic exposure, you'd want to conduct stratified sampling that focuses on known problematic areas (high population, high exposure), but also includes areas in which exposure risk is thought to be low. For specific treatment, you'd likely need to test individuals. That's not the same as determining where the problem is. And ultimately remediation and prevention is hugely more effective that retrospective treatment. In the case of lead, once there's been exposure, harm has already been done.
thehappypm 5y ago
Were they wearing masks while working? Lead is dangerous, but outdoors and masked, the risk is low. I kind of doubt that there’s even a big risk to your kids if you’re in the next house over. The problem is fine particulates which don’t dissipate quickly in open air.
sizzle 5y ago
Thanks for standing up for your neighbors and community. We need more people like you who can sound the alarm for us who are unaware of the hazards all around us.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> Anyway, I printed out the EPA guidelines, shouted them down when they fired up the back hoe that they were in violation of federal law. When in doubt, call up your city's code enforcement office. They love showing up to work sites and catching contractors violating code. And the contractors will listen, too.

afandian 5y ago
A someone outside of the US (and who never quite understood the state/federal divide!), I'm really curious about what state regulatory enforcement is in now. It seemed [0] that the recent Republican government aimed to make as much damage as possible to these safety nets. Are they still there and functional? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_Donald_Trump_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_policy_of_the_Do...
- Wohlf 5y ago
  The states and larger cities have their own sets of regulations and enforcement agencies so it's not a simple question, but as best I can tell COVID restrictions and hiring issues have been a bigger blow to regulatory enforcement than the past administration, any changes they made would be marginal in comparison and are likely already undone by the new administration.
  - xapata 5y ago
    It's not easy to hire good staff when budgets are cut.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > who never quite understood the state/federal divide This is key. The states in the US hold a huge amount of the actual power. As a practical matter the EPA will never be involved with something like this. It will be the state DEQ (or equivalent agency) that really has the teeth.
- cogman10 5y ago
  The original intent of the US foundation was that state be ran like nations are ran in the EU. That is, for the most part they are independent with a federal government that makes sure everyone plays nice. That all changed with the civil war and the 14th amendment. After that, the federal government gained a LOT of power that it didn't previously have. However, it's not something that was universal. In the US, federal still, for the most part, only deals with things that can be conceived to effect more than one state at the same time. There is, for example, no federal murder law. With that in mind, you have 50 states and for the most part, how the little things are handled are entirely up to each state. What a state will do in regards to regulations and safety nets is simply all over the board.
  - danlugo92 5y ago
    From a non american viewpoint, I find it impressive that states like Florida and Texas have been able to do away with covid restrictions independently of all other states.

derekpankaew 5y ago

They just got a slap on the wrist? It seems like there should be much heavier penalties for spreading a neurotoxin ... ...

motohagiography 5y ago

Would lead paints have a relatively unique RF refractive signature? Wondering if flying a drone with some wave guides could inventory buidlings with external lead paint, and then use the data for permitting to require additional environmental controls.

ch4s3 5y ago
You really only need to know the age of the building to know if it has lead paint, generally.
- giardini 5y ago
  Here's a link if you're worried: "Lead Paint – What Years Did They Use It?": https://buyersask.com/education-center/lead-paint-what-years-did-they-use-it/ https://buyersask.com/education-center/lead-paint-what-years...
  - bcrosby95 5y ago
    Note that every contractor I've spoken to assumes anything built before 1978 has lead paint. My understanding is that it's probably going to be more expensive to test every spot you need to test for lead paint vs just treating it as if it is lead paint in the first place.
- tdumitrescu 5y ago
  If it _had_ lead paint. Could have been scraped and repainted later.
  - ch4s3 5y ago
    Scraping and repainting alone won't remove the lead. You need to do actual remediation. In some places there would be records of permits for that.
mint2 5y ago
The lead paint generally has been painted over multiple times, so the surface would be modern paint with the lead underneath.

wnevets 5y ago

>but his general attitude was that we were overblowing the problem. I've had similar experience when talking with contractors about it. I've been told multiple times that unless a child eats a handful everyday its not a problem.

RankingMember 5y ago

This is super common in my experience: contractors pretending to be ignorant of safety regulations to speed up work.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

CapitalistCartr 5y ago

I'd love to see a massive project to test every child in the nation. It's hard to plan without good data. Once we know who is the worst off, we can better protect everyone. Of course, property owners have massive political clout, and they don't want to find any problems.

greedo 5y ago
I'll believe that when I see it. We can't even test for a virus that's killing 400K/year. Nor can we provide safe drinking water for a city that's been stuck with crappy water for years and well publicized to boot.
dredmorbius 5y ago
Universal testing is very expensive and provides minimal additional data. That's not an argument for no surveillance, it's an argument for reasonable surveillance. Modern statistics is based around the principle of random sampling for very good reasons: it works. With a small but properly-conducted and truly random sample, you'll gain a tremendous level of insight over a large domain. The additional resolution increases with the square of the sample size. If you want twice the resolution you need four times the sample. Expanding a sample 10x only buys about 3.3x reduction in error. But your costs are up 10x. In the case of environmental toxic exposure, you'd want to conduct stratified sampling that focuses on known problematic areas (high population, high exposure), but also includes areas in which exposure risk is thought to be low. For specific treatment, you'd likely need to test individuals. That's not the same as determining where the problem is. And ultimately remediation and prevention is hugely more effective that retrospective treatment. In the case of lead, once there's been exposure, harm has already been done.

thehappypm 5y ago

Were they wearing masks while working? Lead is dangerous, but outdoors and masked, the risk is low. I kind of doubt that there’s even a big risk to your kids if you’re in the next house over. The problem is fine particulates which don’t dissipate quickly in open air.

sizzle 5y ago

Thanks for standing up for your neighbors and community. We need more people like you who can sound the alarm for us who are unaware of the hazards all around us.