6 ms·

The problem seems to be that these models provide fairly accurate information at many occasions and occasionally complete blunders. Humans provide less accurate

by 13415 5y ago

The problem seems to be that these models provide fairly accurate information at many occasions and occasionally complete blunders. Humans provide less accurate information most of the time but with a certain amount of self-reflection/meta-cognition, and they will usually recognize total blunders or display reasonable uncertainty about them. There are only very few applications where it would make sense to take the risk and use an AI that occasionally makes gigantic mistakes without any understanding why. Even seemingly harmless applications like automated customer support could go horribly wrong.

axg11 5y ago
Accuracy is improving rapidly though. I agree that the current accuracy levels are not high enough to be relied upon. > Humans ... they will usually recognize total blunder I question this assumption. I don't believe this is true, even for subject matter experts. I've worked with radiology data where experts with 10+ years of experience make blunders that disagree with a consensus panel of radiologists.
- rdedev 5y ago
  Radiology is one of those fields were a lot of it comes from experience and intuition mostly because of how complex the human body is. Compare this to a physicist; pretty sure you wont get as much disagreements there.
  - aix1 5y ago
    Your comment reminded me of this fascinating work: Levenson RM, Krupinski EA, Navarro VM, Wasserman EA (2015) Pigeons (Columba livia) as Trainable Observers of Pathology and Radiology Breast Cancer Images. PLoS ONE 10(11): e0141357. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0141357 https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0141357 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141357 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
- 13415 5y ago
  I realize I should have been more precise. I agree that there are many areas in which AI can and already has excelled humans and less often makes grave mistakes than humans. I specifically had natural language processing with a focus on "intelligent" conversation in mind. The issues in that area might have less to do with the pattern recognition ability and more with the lack of appropriate meta-cognition, introspection, and self-doubt. Maybe having several AIs internally berate which answer is best before uttering it would already do the trick, though.
  - ska 5y ago
    > AI can and already has excelled humans and less often makes grave mistakes than humans. Radiology, to continue the example, isn't one of them. We've been doing ML/AI in radiology data since the 90s, and results have been, and remain, decidedly mixed.
    - aix1 5y ago
      A couple of points: 1. It's easy to forget how recent many of modern ML methods for computer vision are. (E.g. U-net only goes back to 2015!) 2. It's not totally clear to be what you mean by "mixed results" (have we solved every problem in radiology? probably not). However, it is clear that there certainly have been some successes. Here's one example: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1799-6.epdf?author_access_token=V_LKV2xpSv9G1dhANYeWM9RgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0M5zwPVx5jT4z_z-YkUZTBT6_1AtRXi8QouJM7xB-oSN-cVBoH7f_QTgx-yQN3UBEVfkvO1_5urNT-CZHGCEQNGlCuO69tMQYak4SmdoDqyzg%3D%3D https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1799-6.epdf?autho...
      - ska 5y ago
        That paper is a good example actually. The first clinically approved, commercially available breast screening CADe system using NN models was available in the 90s. It too was aimed at the 2nd reader problem. At the time there was a lot of concern radiology circles that algorithms were going to take over. That pretty quickly died down as people worked with CADe and CAD systems. Breast is one of the obvious targets, as data availability is pretty good. So over 25 years there have been incremental improvements, sure, but no real eye opening jumps, The move to deep models has helped a bit but nothing revolutionary. You still find very influential radiologists who aren’t convinced it’s worth the time, yet. I think all of them expect it to be a growing part of the workflows over time but that’s about it. Personally I think the impact will both be much bigger than the pessimistic radiologists think, and much further off than the optimistic ML think (for both non technical and technical reasons). I suspect the broader availability of good digital data has had far more impact than the modeling updates. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the tools and modeling developed over the last decade - but I think the big wins are far more about data, and secondarily compute availability than about models.
- rhizome 5y ago
  >Accuracy is improving rapidly though It's asymptotic and it will never achieve 1:1 accuracy. The natural world doesn't have a measurable resolution, and this is apparent in written language, as we're seeing others detail in other comments, as well as it is in more relatable fields like sound. There will always be a difference between what your ears hear and 192kHz/24bit (and higher) digitized audio and/or video. That difference will always be a source of...mistakes.
rhizome 5y ago
>There are only very few applications where it would make sense to take the risk and use an AI that occasionally makes gigantic mistakes without any understanding why. Even seemingly harmless applications like automated customer support could go horribly wrong. Hey, it's just a few quantization errors. Nobody walking across a street or voting in an election has anything to worry about from those. /s These are the fatal flaws, the hamartia if you will, in attempts to democratize technologies that are based on digitizing the real world and making decisions based on its interpretations of a quantized dataset. The opposite of the uncanny valley is you getting run over by a Waymo.

by 13415 5y ago

axg11 5y ago

Accuracy is improving rapidly though. I agree that the current accuracy levels are not high enough to be relied upon. > Humans ... they will usually recognize total blunder I question this assumption. I don't believe this is true, even for subject matter experts. I've worked with radiology data where experts with 10+ years of experience make blunders that disagree with a consensus panel of radiologists.

rdedev 5y ago
Radiology is one of those fields were a lot of it comes from experience and intuition mostly because of how complex the human body is. Compare this to a physicist; pretty sure you wont get as much disagreements there.
- aix1 5y ago
  Your comment reminded me of this fascinating work: Levenson RM, Krupinski EA, Navarro VM, Wasserman EA (2015) Pigeons (Columba livia) as Trainable Observers of Pathology and Radiology Breast Cancer Images. PLoS ONE 10(11): e0141357. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0141357 https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0141357 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141357 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
13415 5y ago
I realize I should have been more precise. I agree that there are many areas in which AI can and already has excelled humans and less often makes grave mistakes than humans. I specifically had natural language processing with a focus on "intelligent" conversation in mind. The issues in that area might have less to do with the pattern recognition ability and more with the lack of appropriate meta-cognition, introspection, and self-doubt. Maybe having several AIs internally berate which answer is best before uttering it would already do the trick, though.
- ska 5y ago
  > AI can and already has excelled humans and less often makes grave mistakes than humans. Radiology, to continue the example, isn't one of them. We've been doing ML/AI in radiology data since the 90s, and results have been, and remain, decidedly mixed.
  - aix1 5y ago
    A couple of points: 1. It's easy to forget how recent many of modern ML methods for computer vision are. (E.g. U-net only goes back to 2015!) 2. It's not totally clear to be what you mean by "mixed results" (have we solved every problem in radiology? probably not). However, it is clear that there certainly have been some successes. Here's one example: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1799-6.epdf?author_access_token=V_LKV2xpSv9G1dhANYeWM9RgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0M5zwPVx5jT4z_z-YkUZTBT6_1AtRXi8QouJM7xB-oSN-cVBoH7f_QTgx-yQN3UBEVfkvO1_5urNT-CZHGCEQNGlCuO69tMQYak4SmdoDqyzg%3D%3D https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1799-6.epdf?autho...
    - ska 5y ago
      That paper is a good example actually. The first clinically approved, commercially available breast screening CADe system using NN models was available in the 90s. It too was aimed at the 2nd reader problem. At the time there was a lot of concern radiology circles that algorithms were going to take over. That pretty quickly died down as people worked with CADe and CAD systems. Breast is one of the obvious targets, as data availability is pretty good. So over 25 years there have been incremental improvements, sure, but no real eye opening jumps, The move to deep models has helped a bit but nothing revolutionary. You still find very influential radiologists who aren’t convinced it’s worth the time, yet. I think all of them expect it to be a growing part of the workflows over time but that’s about it. Personally I think the impact will both be much bigger than the pessimistic radiologists think, and much further off than the optimistic ML think (for both non technical and technical reasons). I suspect the broader availability of good digital data has had far more impact than the modeling updates. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the tools and modeling developed over the last decade - but I think the big wins are far more about data, and secondarily compute availability than about models.
rhizome 5y ago
>Accuracy is improving rapidly though It's asymptotic and it will never achieve 1:1 accuracy. The natural world doesn't have a measurable resolution, and this is apparent in written language, as we're seeing others detail in other comments, as well as it is in more relatable fields like sound. There will always be a difference between what your ears hear and 192kHz/24bit (and higher) digitized audio and/or video. That difference will always be a source of...mistakes.

rhizome 5y ago

>There are only very few applications where it would make sense to take the risk and use an AI that occasionally makes gigantic mistakes without any understanding why. Even seemingly harmless applications like automated customer support could go horribly wrong. Hey, it's just a few quantization errors. Nobody walking across a street or voting in an election has anything to worry about from those. /s These are the fatal flaws, the hamartia if you will, in attempts to democratize technologies that are based on digitizing the real world and making decisions based on its interpretations of a quantized dataset. The opposite of the uncanny valley is you getting run over by a Waymo.