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I understand you don't like rust. That's fair it's got pros and cons and some cool stuff and warts. What i don't understand is the sheer level of anger it brin

I understand you don't like rust. That's fair it's got pros and cons and some cool stuff and warts. What i don't understand is the sheer level of anger it brings out in people. As one of those angry folks: what makes you so upset?

detaro 5y ago
not OP, but: Presumably the impression that there is a Rust hype squad that's pushing it everywhere and swipes away any counter arguments. I'm not that opposed to Rust and think its an interesting language, but the more annoying parts of its fanbase really haven't done it any favors. The sort that comments on every new project not in Rust "why is this not in Rust" (this specific thing seems to have died down somewhat), ignores any progress in other languages or Rusts weaknesses when making comparisons and thinks "Everyone still writing C++ should be tried in Den Haag" is a perfectly fine contribution (yes, that's a real example. sadly)
- Guvante 5y ago
  C++ has nearly as many rabid fanboys as Rust. I am curious why the community reacts differently to them. I am not saying "just write it in Rust" is a good thing, I think anyone claiming someone else needs to rewrite their program is automatically wrong. This thread is full of "Linus hates C++" as if "the subset of C++ that can be used in the kernel is basically C" is an outright fabrication. I may be oversampling on the fact that nearly every article about programming languages here is filled with people wondering what the point is though shrug.
  - detaro 5y ago
    > "the subset of C++ that can be used in the kernel is basically C" is an outright fabrication. It's IMHO a good example of "ignore any progress in other languages", because it was a lot more true back when the question of C++ in the kernel first came up than it would be today. Which is not to say that the kernel should add C++, Linus is fully allowed to still think c++ isn't a good choice or to personally dislike it. And I'm very certain I've seen less intrusive pro-C++ spamming than I've seen for Rust. C++ hasn't been cool or hype in a long time, it's mostly on the defensive in such arguments. Even Go wasn't as bad IMHO, and that also had some hype factor. EDIT: > This thread is full of "Linus hates C++" Ok, I skimmed the thread. There is one comment saying that, one saying "Linus wasn't a fan at the time". "Full of", sure.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    >"C++ has nearly as many rabid fanboys " My impression - not even remotely close. Mostly it is the subject of bashing.
    - Guvante 5y ago
      You haven't seen many Hacker News pages involving a GC language and the topic of performance the number of "just write it in C++ like everyone else" is frustrating. Nothing against C++ just telling someone else to change languages is unhelpful.
rvz 5y ago
Where did I say 'I didn't like Rust'? I'm sure my comment is directed specifically at the 'Rust hype squad'. It is them who push the 'Rewrite it in Rust' message on projects without assessing the consequences of doing so; and they continue to use the above excuses of justifying it.
fxtentacle 5y ago
I wrote "Less religious missionaries. Also, less funding by FAANG." To answer your question, I honestly don't have a strong opinion about Rust. I had to deal with it years ago when I needed to recompile parts of Firefox and back then it seemed OK but still a bit messy, like all new programming languages. But I cannot shake the feeling that Rust has some very loud fanboys. The original mailing list entry is about Rust being merged into Linux-next. C++ and Java are already in there, too [1]. So while that is a great preparatory step for Rust, it's not the big breakthrough that it is presented as. By now, I've read so many articles that overstated the benefits of Rust (e.g. "zero cost abstractions" - which then fail to optimize) that I immediately become suspicious if something is news purely because it relates to Rust. And w.r.t. my second statement. The original article thanks Google for their generous funding. Which is true. Rust did receive generous funding from many sources, because companies who need a safer alternative to C / C++ tend to like it. And I believe that is a factor which contributes to Rust being merged into linux-next while other languages weren't. Rust has the necessary funding to do the preparatory work. [1] Java(tm) Binary Kernel Support for Linux https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/java.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/java.html
- Tobu 5y ago
  You clearly misunderstood the link you gave about Java support if you think it's relevant to how the kernel is implemented. The kernel has extensible support for execve-ing files the kernel doesn't directly understand as binaries by forwarding them to another program that behaves as an interpreter, the binfmt-misc machinery. The docs you linked just give an example of configuring that for various types of Java files.
FpUser 5y ago
I do not hate Rust at all as I am completely free in choice of my tools. Reading HN however leaves me with the impression that Rust public is often on a holy quest to declare anyone using languages other than the Rust as infidels.
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
I think Rust is like Wayland (and systemd before that); it's a new technology that probably is much better than the thing it intends to replace, but it does so by completely changing how things work, raises the lower bar on complexity (yes, I understand that it also lowers the ceiling), happily discards things that its proponents view as unimportant edge cases (I can use C to build an X client on NetBSD on Alpha), and - very importantly emotionally speaking - frequently is first noticed when it breaks something (Why did my graphical session break? Wayland. Why did my Python cryptography module break? Rust.).

detaro 5y ago

not OP, but: Presumably the impression that there is a Rust hype squad that's pushing it everywhere and swipes away any counter arguments. I'm not that opposed to Rust and think its an interesting language, but the more annoying parts of its fanbase really haven't done it any favors. The sort that comments on every new project not in Rust "why is this not in Rust" (this specific thing seems to have died down somewhat), ignores any progress in other languages or Rusts weaknesses when making comparisons and thinks "Everyone still writing C++ should be tried in Den Haag" is a perfectly fine contribution (yes, that's a real example. sadly)

Guvante 5y ago
C++ has nearly as many rabid fanboys as Rust. I am curious why the community reacts differently to them. I am not saying "just write it in Rust" is a good thing, I think anyone claiming someone else needs to rewrite their program is automatically wrong. This thread is full of "Linus hates C++" as if "the subset of C++ that can be used in the kernel is basically C" is an outright fabrication. I may be oversampling on the fact that nearly every article about programming languages here is filled with people wondering what the point is though shrug.
- detaro 5y ago
  > "the subset of C++ that can be used in the kernel is basically C" is an outright fabrication. It's IMHO a good example of "ignore any progress in other languages", because it was a lot more true back when the question of C++ in the kernel first came up than it would be today. Which is not to say that the kernel should add C++, Linus is fully allowed to still think c++ isn't a good choice or to personally dislike it. And I'm very certain I've seen less intrusive pro-C++ spamming than I've seen for Rust. C++ hasn't been cool or hype in a long time, it's mostly on the defensive in such arguments. Even Go wasn't as bad IMHO, and that also had some hype factor. EDIT: > This thread is full of "Linus hates C++" Ok, I skimmed the thread. There is one comment saying that, one saying "Linus wasn't a fan at the time". "Full of", sure.
- FpUser 5y ago
  >"C++ has nearly as many rabid fanboys " My impression - not even remotely close. Mostly it is the subject of bashing.
  - Guvante 5y ago
    You haven't seen many Hacker News pages involving a GC language and the topic of performance the number of "just write it in C++ like everyone else" is frustrating. Nothing against C++ just telling someone else to change languages is unhelpful.

rvz 5y ago

Where did I say 'I didn't like Rust'? I'm sure my comment is directed specifically at the 'Rust hype squad'. It is them who push the 'Rewrite it in Rust' message on projects without assessing the consequences of doing so; and they continue to use the above excuses of justifying it.

fxtentacle 5y ago

I wrote "Less religious missionaries. Also, less funding by FAANG." To answer your question, I honestly don't have a strong opinion about Rust. I had to deal with it years ago when I needed to recompile parts of Firefox and back then it seemed OK but still a bit messy, like all new programming languages. But I cannot shake the feeling that Rust has some very loud fanboys. The original mailing list entry is about Rust being merged into Linux-next. C++ and Java are already in there, too [1]. So while that is a great preparatory step for Rust, it's not the big breakthrough that it is presented as. By now, I've read so many articles that overstated the benefits of Rust (e.g. "zero cost abstractions" - which then fail to optimize) that I immediately become suspicious if something is news purely because it relates to Rust. And w.r.t. my second statement. The original article thanks Google for their generous funding. Which is true. Rust did receive generous funding from many sources, because companies who need a safer alternative to C / C++ tend to like it. And I believe that is a factor which contributes to Rust being merged into linux-next while other languages weren't. Rust has the necessary funding to do the preparatory work. [1] Java(tm) Binary Kernel Support for Linux https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/java.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/java.html

Tobu 5y ago
You clearly misunderstood the link you gave about Java support if you think it's relevant to how the kernel is implemented. The kernel has extensible support for execve-ing files the kernel doesn't directly understand as binaries by forwarding them to another program that behaves as an interpreter, the binfmt-misc machinery. The docs you linked just give an example of configuring that for various types of Java files.

FpUser 5y ago

I do not hate Rust at all as I am completely free in choice of my tools. Reading HN however leaves me with the impression that Rust public is often on a holy quest to declare anyone using languages other than the Rust as infidels.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

I think Rust is like Wayland (and systemd before that); it's a new technology that probably is much better than the thing it intends to replace, but it does so by completely changing how things work, raises the lower bar on complexity (yes, I understand that it also lowers the ceiling), happily discards things that its proponents view as unimportant edge cases (I can use C to build an X client on NetBSD on Alpha), and - very importantly emotionally speaking - frequently is first noticed when it breaks something (Why did my graphical session break? Wayland. Why did my Python cryptography module break? Rust.).