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Why would they have to pay you a cool sum of money for it? It sounds pretty clearly like you did it for work, so unless you have a very unique employment contra

Why would they have to pay you a cool sum of money for it? It sounds pretty clearly like you did it for work, so unless you have a very unique employment contract, they already own it.

dheera 5y ago
Uh, because you could get 4X the "amount of shit" done in the same amount of time? So ideally they should pay you 4X.
dkersten 5y ago
For work sure, but it also sounds to me that it was built during personal time. If I use my own time to make something, work isn’t getting it without paying for it. I don’t care what the contract says about personal projects (although I‘ve also never signed one of those “we own everything you do outside of work” clauses because I find them exploitative and abusive)
- JohnFen 5y ago
  > (although I‘ve also never signed one of those “we own everything you do outside of work” clauses because I find them explosive and abusive) Me too. I always ask that it be removed from the contract, and so far, it always has been.
  - parksy 5y ago
    When I was working as a web developer for a company, I published a game I spent many years dreaming of, and in real terms thousands of hours learning and creating. I wrote the music, drew the sprites, coded the game loops, purchased all the tools, built it using my own hardware etc. The CFO at some party or other after a few beers told me if the game actually became successful, there was nothing I could do to stop them claiming ownership of all of the IP because of a clause I'd signed at some point. Since I left that place and I believe most of my time-limited terms have expired, IP is one of the very few things I'll get caught up on with a contract. I'm flexible around hours, reporting, attire, presence, etc, but IP outside of specifically client-related work activities is where I draw the line. I am a digital creator on my own time, I always have been since I was a child, I draw inspiration from many sources, whether it's work or books or videos or art, or even just a random thought. The notion that one day one of these things randomly becomes successful and a bevy of previous clients lays claim to the fruits of my labour sickens me to the core and goes against every sense of living in a fair and just society. I've knocked back clients who refuse to budge on this issue. I'm no Bill Gates or whatever, but there's absolutely no way I'm signing over rights to things I invent or innovate on my own time. If the people I work for want access to that additional service beyond whatever monkey-shit I'm doing for them then they can pay for it and not just swipe it through some boilerplate IP clauses.
- awillen 5y ago
  I agree with you on the personal projects stuff and have also had that language struck from contracts (I've published a couple of short books on Amazon and had one contract that pretty clearly said my employer would be entitled to profits from those books... pass). But in terms of building it on personal time, I'm iffy on that. Obviously in tech the time tends to blend together... I've worked on weekends but also spent half a day doing personal stuff when I'm WFH and I have very little on my plate. It seems to me like the more relevant fact is that he clearly built this for his job - to me, that makes it feel like this is a situation where the employer claiming ownership isn't abusive at all. If he never would've built this if not for being employed at that job, and he used it primarily in that job, isn't it fair to say he made it as part of the job?
  - dkersten 5y ago
    My contracts either stipulated set work hours or was contract work for which I billed for the hours. If the project is completed outside of the stipulated work hours or not billed for and not using company resources such as computers, then they have no claim to it. If I’m meeting my contactual obligations, anything more is mine. If I go above and beyond, then that is, essentially, a gift from me to the company, because I’m only compensated for what the contract says I’m compensated for. If I spend my leisure time to build something that makes my job easier, I see that akin to using the time to go to the gym or get more sleep because that also makes my job easier. If it’s my leisure time, what I do is my business even if it helps my work. Of course we don’t know when this person built the tool and maybe it was done in a less clear way. I always try to keep things I do for myself clearly separate. Eg if I’m WFH and the last hour is quiet maybe I’ll also put some food on while I finish work, but I would never use that time to work on a personal project but rather wait until I’m clearly clocked out.
DangitBobby 5y ago
You are making a pretty good case for why they should continue to not share it with anyone.
- awillen 5y ago
  Why? It sounds like it's built on an internal platform, so there's no other use for it. Sharing it with other people at the company would at least improve his reputation with those people, which could be helpful down the line.

Why would they have to pay you a cool sum of money for it? It sounds pretty clearly like you did it for work, so unless you have a very unique employment contract, they already own it.

dheera 5y ago

Uh, because you could get 4X the "amount of shit" done in the same amount of time? So ideally they should pay you 4X.

dkersten 5y ago

For work sure, but it also sounds to me that it was built during personal time. If I use my own time to make something, work isn’t getting it without paying for it. I don’t care what the contract says about personal projects (although I‘ve also never signed one of those “we own everything you do outside of work” clauses because I find them exploitative and abusive)

JohnFen 5y ago
> (although I‘ve also never signed one of those “we own everything you do outside of work” clauses because I find them explosive and abusive) Me too. I always ask that it be removed from the contract, and so far, it always has been.
- parksy 5y ago
  When I was working as a web developer for a company, I published a game I spent many years dreaming of, and in real terms thousands of hours learning and creating. I wrote the music, drew the sprites, coded the game loops, purchased all the tools, built it using my own hardware etc. The CFO at some party or other after a few beers told me if the game actually became successful, there was nothing I could do to stop them claiming ownership of all of the IP because of a clause I'd signed at some point. Since I left that place and I believe most of my time-limited terms have expired, IP is one of the very few things I'll get caught up on with a contract. I'm flexible around hours, reporting, attire, presence, etc, but IP outside of specifically client-related work activities is where I draw the line. I am a digital creator on my own time, I always have been since I was a child, I draw inspiration from many sources, whether it's work or books or videos or art, or even just a random thought. The notion that one day one of these things randomly becomes successful and a bevy of previous clients lays claim to the fruits of my labour sickens me to the core and goes against every sense of living in a fair and just society. I've knocked back clients who refuse to budge on this issue. I'm no Bill Gates or whatever, but there's absolutely no way I'm signing over rights to things I invent or innovate on my own time. If the people I work for want access to that additional service beyond whatever monkey-shit I'm doing for them then they can pay for it and not just swipe it through some boilerplate IP clauses.
awillen 5y ago
I agree with you on the personal projects stuff and have also had that language struck from contracts (I've published a couple of short books on Amazon and had one contract that pretty clearly said my employer would be entitled to profits from those books... pass). But in terms of building it on personal time, I'm iffy on that. Obviously in tech the time tends to blend together... I've worked on weekends but also spent half a day doing personal stuff when I'm WFH and I have very little on my plate. It seems to me like the more relevant fact is that he clearly built this for his job - to me, that makes it feel like this is a situation where the employer claiming ownership isn't abusive at all. If he never would've built this if not for being employed at that job, and he used it primarily in that job, isn't it fair to say he made it as part of the job?
- dkersten 5y ago
  My contracts either stipulated set work hours or was contract work for which I billed for the hours. If the project is completed outside of the stipulated work hours or not billed for and not using company resources such as computers, then they have no claim to it. If I’m meeting my contactual obligations, anything more is mine. If I go above and beyond, then that is, essentially, a gift from me to the company, because I’m only compensated for what the contract says I’m compensated for. If I spend my leisure time to build something that makes my job easier, I see that akin to using the time to go to the gym or get more sleep because that also makes my job easier. If it’s my leisure time, what I do is my business even if it helps my work. Of course we don’t know when this person built the tool and maybe it was done in a less clear way. I always try to keep things I do for myself clearly separate. Eg if I’m WFH and the last hour is quiet maybe I’ll also put some food on while I finish work, but I would never use that time to work on a personal project but rather wait until I’m clearly clocked out.

DangitBobby 5y ago

You are making a pretty good case for why they should continue to not share it with anyone.

awillen 5y ago
Why? It sounds like it's built on an internal platform, so there's no other use for it. Sharing it with other people at the company would at least improve his reputation with those people, which could be helpful down the line.