4 ms·

Not to hijack the thread: why is my post being flagged? I'm asking a genuine question! I was linking to UK Government data here [0] and asking about the number

Not to hijack the thread: why is my post being flagged? I'm asking a genuine question! I was linking to UK Government data here [0] and asking about the numbers. They're not adding up. I want to know if my interpretation is correct [0] - https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/deathsbyvaccinationstatusengland https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...

hugozap 5y ago
I think you should see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVRfBhy5vGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVRfBhy5vGI
stuartloxton 5y ago
If you want to seriously discuss you should put which data points your comparing so others can also compare. When I look at that sheet and look at the rates comparing unvaccinated vs fully faccinated the death rate is lower for every age group when vaccinated. * Comparing week ending 24th September 2021
- fer 5y ago
  They're comparing different/dates/vaccination rates, classic Simpson's paradox. No adjusted data shows otherwise.
  - _Understated_ 5y ago
    I'm not. Taking the last available data point which is 24 Sep 21: Unvax 80+ - 28 deaths Double-vax 80+ - 243 deaths What does that mean? It lools like more die with a double-dose. Is that not correct?
    - mminer237 5y ago
      You are not. Slightly more vaccinated people died than unvaccinated. However, not from COVID-19. The elderly are more likely to be vaccinated and also more likely to die of heart disease or cancer. You'll note in Table 8 that 34k unvaccinated died of COVID, compared to 14k vaccinated. Also, 83% of people are vaccinated, meaning the unvaccinated would have had to have died at even greater rates, at over 900% the rate of vaccinated. However, to further account for the elderly being at greater risk of COVID, you'll further note that Table 8 has an "age-standardised mortality rate", showing that on an individual basis, choosing to remain unvaccinated made someone 3230% more likely to die of COVID.
      - _Understated_ 5y ago
        Ok, so that makes some sense to me. Thanks for explaining it.
glial 5y ago
You gave an inflammatory conclusion "we're all being lied to!" without showing how you reached that conclusion.
- _Understated_ 5y ago
  Perhaps I flew off the handle. Partly due to being flagged with no reply!
  - dang 5y ago
    The other relevant factor is that if you lead with "Ok, I'm going to get flamed, downvoted or whatever for this", people will downvote/flag the post almost regardless of what it says, because (a) it's against the site guidelines, (b) it's a tedious internet trope, and (c) it's reliably a marker of bad comments. Best to edit that kind of thing out in the future.
bikingbismuth 5y ago
Find a new talking point, this one is trivial to debunk[0] [0] https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news/news-articles/2021/11/in-the-wrong-hands,-vaccination-statistics-can-prove-deadly-simpsons-paradox-shows-why https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news/news-articles/2021/11/in...
sharklazer 5y ago
I don’t know myself, but this happens frequently. Any body can flag your posts.
- eckmLJE 5y ago
  Untrue, I believe you need a certain amount of karma to be able to flag.
  - detaro 5y ago
    But it's something like 20 or 25, so really trivial to hit for any genuine user. (Although it's possible there is some weighting going on, so maybe new accounts get less flagging power or something like that)
    - 4ggr0 5y ago
      Nope, I have 213 karma and the only thing I can do is upvote comments.
      - detaro 5y ago
        Can you flag submissions?
        4ggr0 5y ago
        Yes, I can.
        detaro 5y ago
        interesting. maybe I'm misremembering and comment flagging comes with downvotes, which I guess would make some sense.
mshron 5y ago
Look all the way over at "Second dose", the age-standardized mortality rate is 1.1 per 100,000 vs 5.4 per 100,000 for the unvaccinated. 5x protection against death.
- mshron 5y ago
  Table 1, in the linked XLS file for data through 24 September. You can see that it was originally closer to 0.1 (50x protection against death) but it's gone up to 1.1 over the last few months, I'm guessing as immunity has started to wear off.
  - jabbernotty 5y ago
    Something else to consider is that while a person may die while having COVID-19, it does not mean that is all that they died from. People in general may have several health problems, which is especially likely for an 80+ year old person. Some healthcare activities have also been postponed since the outbreak, by the patients and also the hospitals, which may have led to less healthy people.
    - mminer237 5y ago
      This is indeed what Table 8 shows. The vaccinated skew elderly, and while slight more vaccinated died, they were at a much lesser risk of dying for COVID. According to that data, over 32 times less likely for their age.
- mwint 5y ago
  To put these numbers in perspective, global death rate from car accidents is 18.2/100k/yr. 12.4 in the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...
  - base698 5y ago
    The level of risk aversion in the public still shocks me to the core daily. I always knew people who didn't want to risk a skydive or motorcycles. Now it's apparent that people are keen sacrificing the hopes and dreams of themselves and their children for something equivalent of car accidents.
crate_barre 5y ago
They don’t like this devolving into politics, which they really need to get over because the historical fact (when this is all said and done) is that Covid was heavily politicized by both sides in a variety of countries.
- rout39574 5y ago
  I think it's more about unsubstantiated conclusions, hysterically presented. If the original post had outlined the data points that led them to the (IMO erroneous) impression they reached, then the point could have been rebutted.
  - dathinab 5y ago
    Probably I took a look at the data linked and I have absolutely not idea how he came to that conclusion. Like if you pick a age and week and then compare the age group+week specific death rate of fully vaccinated to the death rate of the same age group+week for unvaccinated people and it at least nearly always (I haven't check all data points) very clear that the death rate for unvaccinated people is worse.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

hugozap 5y ago

I think you should see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVRfBhy5vGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVRfBhy5vGI

stuartloxton 5y ago

If you want to seriously discuss you should put which data points your comparing so others can also compare. When I look at that sheet and look at the rates comparing unvaccinated vs fully faccinated the death rate is lower for every age group when vaccinated. * Comparing week ending 24th September 2021

fer 5y ago
They're comparing different/dates/vaccination rates, classic Simpson's paradox. No adjusted data shows otherwise.
- _Understated_ 5y ago
  I'm not. Taking the last available data point which is 24 Sep 21: Unvax 80+ - 28 deaths Double-vax 80+ - 243 deaths What does that mean? It lools like more die with a double-dose. Is that not correct?
  - mminer237 5y ago
    You are not. Slightly more vaccinated people died than unvaccinated. However, not from COVID-19. The elderly are more likely to be vaccinated and also more likely to die of heart disease or cancer. You'll note in Table 8 that 34k unvaccinated died of COVID, compared to 14k vaccinated. Also, 83% of people are vaccinated, meaning the unvaccinated would have had to have died at even greater rates, at over 900% the rate of vaccinated. However, to further account for the elderly being at greater risk of COVID, you'll further note that Table 8 has an "age-standardised mortality rate", showing that on an individual basis, choosing to remain unvaccinated made someone 3230% more likely to die of COVID.
    - _Understated_ 5y ago
      Ok, so that makes some sense to me. Thanks for explaining it.

glial 5y ago

You gave an inflammatory conclusion "we're all being lied to!" without showing how you reached that conclusion.

_Understated_ 5y ago
Perhaps I flew off the handle. Partly due to being flagged with no reply!
- dang 5y ago
  The other relevant factor is that if you lead with "Ok, I'm going to get flamed, downvoted or whatever for this", people will downvote/flag the post almost regardless of what it says, because (a) it's against the site guidelines, (b) it's a tedious internet trope, and (c) it's reliably a marker of bad comments. Best to edit that kind of thing out in the future.

bikingbismuth 5y ago

Find a new talking point, this one is trivial to debunk[0] [0] https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news/news-articles/2021/11/in-the-wrong-hands,-vaccination-statistics-can-prove-deadly-simpsons-paradox-shows-why https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news/news-articles/2021/11/in...

sharklazer 5y ago

I don’t know myself, but this happens frequently. Any body can flag your posts.

eckmLJE 5y ago
Untrue, I believe you need a certain amount of karma to be able to flag.
- detaro 5y ago
  But it's something like 20 or 25, so really trivial to hit for any genuine user. (Although it's possible there is some weighting going on, so maybe new accounts get less flagging power or something like that)
  - 4ggr0 5y ago
    Nope, I have 213 karma and the only thing I can do is upvote comments.
    - detaro 5y ago
      Can you flag submissions?
      - 4ggr0 5y ago
        Yes, I can.
        detaro 5y ago
        interesting. maybe I'm misremembering and comment flagging comes with downvotes, which I guess would make some sense.

mshron 5y ago

Look all the way over at "Second dose", the age-standardized mortality rate is 1.1 per 100,000 vs 5.4 per 100,000 for the unvaccinated. 5x protection against death.

mshron 5y ago
Table 1, in the linked XLS file for data through 24 September. You can see that it was originally closer to 0.1 (50x protection against death) but it's gone up to 1.1 over the last few months, I'm guessing as immunity has started to wear off.
- jabbernotty 5y ago
  Something else to consider is that while a person may die while having COVID-19, it does not mean that is all that they died from. People in general may have several health problems, which is especially likely for an 80+ year old person. Some healthcare activities have also been postponed since the outbreak, by the patients and also the hospitals, which may have led to less healthy people.
  - mminer237 5y ago
    This is indeed what Table 8 shows. The vaccinated skew elderly, and while slight more vaccinated died, they were at a much lesser risk of dying for COVID. According to that data, over 32 times less likely for their age.
mwint 5y ago
To put these numbers in perspective, global death rate from car accidents is 18.2/100k/yr. 12.4 in the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...
- base698 5y ago
  The level of risk aversion in the public still shocks me to the core daily. I always knew people who didn't want to risk a skydive or motorcycles. Now it's apparent that people are keen sacrificing the hopes and dreams of themselves and their children for something equivalent of car accidents.

crate_barre 5y ago

They don’t like this devolving into politics, which they really need to get over because the historical fact (when this is all said and done) is that Covid was heavily politicized by both sides in a variety of countries.

rout39574 5y ago
I think it's more about unsubstantiated conclusions, hysterically presented. If the original post had outlined the data points that led them to the (IMO erroneous) impression they reached, then the point could have been rebutted.
- dathinab 5y ago
  Probably I took a look at the data linked and I have absolutely not idea how he came to that conclusion. Like if you pick a age and week and then compare the age group+week specific death rate of fully vaccinated to the death rate of the same age group+week for unvaccinated people and it at least nearly always (I haven't check all data points) very clear that the death rate for unvaccinated people is worse.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]