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That was a good name, but too close to MongoDB. FerretDB does seem to follow the rule that databases need to have terrible names.
by Narretz 5y ago
That was a good name, but too close to MongoDB. FerretDB does seem to follow the rule that databases need to have terrible names.
- codetrotter 5y agoMongoDB is an even more terrible name in my country. I know they named it that because it’s humongous but in my country, “mongo” is a derogatory term that is equally offensive as calling someone a retard and is derived from the word “mongolid”. I remember when I grew up we used to call each other mongo as a joke and not meaning anything bad about it, but then on one occasion a teacher overheard us and told us that she was sad to hear people use the word that way because she had a grandchild with Down’s syndrome. I think this was one of the first times I learned that words said to one person can be hurtful to someone else even if they were not the person you said it to. And after that I’ve tried to be more conscious about which words I use in public.
- chrisseaton 5y agoRight - ‘mongo’ or ‘mong’ is both ableist and racist at the same time!
- hnbad 5y agoI'm always taken aback when I hear Americans casually call each other "spaz" (or use it as a verb, often literally meaning "twitchy"). I'm not sure if it derives from "spastic" or just shares its etymology but my non-native brain always reads it as "Spast" or "Spasti", which is a fairly blatant ableist slur in my native language referring to cerebral palsy.
- Medox 5y agoExplaining the Throttle option to my german colleagues is sometimes awkwardly funny (in german trottel = stupid)
- pmdulaney 5y agoIs "th" pronounced like a "t" in German? (Or is the German "t" pronounced like the English "th"?)
- scns 5y agoThe first.
- hnbad 5y agoGerman doesn't have a "th" sound (okay, technically it's more correct to say German has neither of the two "th" sounds as this is an important difference when pointing out that English only has one of the two German "ch" sounds and only in some variants of English and almost exclusively in Scottish words but I digress). But based on my experience it's a coin toss whether German speakers who don't know enough English to be able to make an attempt at pronouncing it will go for "trottel" or "srottel" in that case, with the latter being even more likely if they go by ear rather than reading the word spelled out.
- dangerbird2 5y ago"spaz" is indeed short for "spastic", but it's not typically seen as an ableist slur like it is in the UK. Presumably, the word had been out of use as a term for people with cerebral palsy long enough in the US that it passed through the "Euphemism treadmill"[1], and is no longer associated with actual disability (similar to "imbecile" or "moron"). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism#Lifespan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism#Lifespan
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- hnbad 5y agoBTW I find it telling, that the entire thread has been flagged and killed. If you tell someone in Germany unfamiliar with the NoSQL space that you plan on using "MongoDB" they'll look at you like you said you plan to use "R*tardDB". It's a genuine real-life problem and the general category of problems is especially well-known in the marketing space. It's probably more widely known in Europe than the US (where English-only is historically the norm) but there are a few examples that occasionally get brought up on HN (e.g. the island "Laputa" being named differently in Spanish editions of works featuring it, although the unfortunate implication possibly being intentional in that case). Outside the database space there's also Wix, who after problems getting traction in Germany tried to "own" the implication of their name by using "Ich wixe" ("I jerk off" but misspelled) or "Ich bin ein Wixer" ("I'm a wanker" but misspelled) in their German ads. I don't see any company being able to pull this off with a name that sounds like an ableist slur though. I'm not saying Americans are (intentionally) ableist when they say "spaz" but it's definitely a word that can provoke very different reactions when used in an international context. I don't know enough about the etymology to say whether it's like "fanny" (which refers to two very different body parts depending on which country you're from) or "c*nt" (which pretty much means the same thing regardless of where you're from but can either be a friendly taunt or extreme insult because of cultural differences) but it's certainly something to be aware of. This isn't the kind of problem you'd want to have with the name of your product is all I'm saying. I guess I'm just happy FerretDB didn't go with SpazDB.
- zxcvbn4038 5y agoEvery time I hear “mongodb” I think of that guy from Blazing Saddles that punches horses. My employer thought it would be cheaper to use Mongodb then hiring people who understood SQL - then free turned into a subscription, and a support plan got added in, now it’s a six figure expense per year. Plus it turns out that developers who don’t understand SQL are really unbelievably bad at everything else database related, so all the Mongodb queries end up being linear scans, and the apps fall over when the dataset grows beyond core memory size - because the app developers like to read the entire collection into ram then iterate through manually and pick the records they want. It’s a huge rewrite when they can no longer do that.
- dotancohen 5y ago> “mongo” is a derogatory term that is equally offensive as calling someone a retard Git and the Gimp are just as bad in English.
- hnbad 5y agoThose aren't really comparable, though. "Git" is just an insult: > git, noun. British Slang. a foolish or contemptible person. "Gimp" can be an ableist slur for someone with a walking impairment in US and Canadian English but also to someone engaging in BDSM (hence "gimp suit"). The GIMP project has also seen a fork in part due to conflicting opinions about whether the name should be changed (tho I think more people were aware of the BDSM meaning and felt uncomfortable with having sexual innuendos in professional software). "Mongo" (in German, and presumably Dutch also, anyway) specifically is used to mock cognitive disability and is derived from the historical medical term "mongoloid" which in itself was already racist. Unlike git and GIMP it's also extremely likely none of the people involved in picking the name were aware of its unfortunate meaning since the name sounds innocuous in English.
- chrisseaton 5y ago> "Gimp" can be an ableist slur for someone with a walking impairment in US and Canadian English but also to someone engaging in BDSM (hence "gimp suit"). The sexual term's etymology is the ableist slur. The gimp suit gimps you. It's the same thing.
- hnbad 5y agoSure but that's one layer removed. The adjective/verb is ableist, the noun refers to a specific sexual fetish but derives from the former, the product name is (in my experience) mostly understood as a reference to the noun. So ableism -> sexual reference -> product name. Whereas in countries where "mongo" or some version thereof is a slur, for MongoDB it's racism -> ableism -> product name or even racism + ableism -> product name The difference is subtle but IMO what makes it worse is that while "gimping" is a dismissive reference to disability, "mongo" is a slur directly mocking a person with a (real or alleged) disability. As I said, you wouldn't want to call your product "Ret*rdDB" either. But I think arguing over which is worse misses the point: it's a good idea to check for foreign language implications when picking a name and you should avoid relying on juvenile puns.
- Minor49er 5y agoFrankly, I'd be less offended by someone calling me a retard than I would if someone suggested that I use MongoDB
- pmdulaney 5y agoDang, what a quick wit!
- peterfarkas 5y agoWe indeed had a hard time finding a good name, especially with the situation around domain names nowadays. An infinite amount of time can be spent on these things. However, we decided that we would rather focus on things which are more likely to determine the overall success of FerretDB - the vision and the execution. We quite like ferrets, though!
- SilasX 5y agoAt least it’s better than cockroach.
- patpending 5y agoThe idiom "ferret away" means to store something in a secret place, and the idiom "ferret out" means to find something by careful searching. Seems like a pretty good name for a database.
- PeterZaitsev 5y agoAlso Ferrets are smart and nimble and make great pets :)
- pmdulaney 5y agoBut in California they are illegal to own without a permit.
- jrochkind1 5y agoJust like FerretDB. Wait, that's not it.
- PeterZaitsev 5y agoThere are many things wrong with California :)
- pmdulaney 5y ago
- danielvaughn 5y agoNow we have FerretDB, CockroachDB. I wonder what animal they'll name a DB after next.
- aigo 5y agoDon't forget clients too - looking at you DBeaver