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God this article is bad on so many levels I don't know where to start. First, income inequality doesn't measure income mobility. Places like the US that have

God this article is bad on so many levels I don't know where to start. First, income inequality doesn't measure income mobility. Places like the US that have a huge number of unskilled illegal and legal immigrants constantly entering at the bottom level will always have high income inequality. The question is, what happens to each individual over the course of their lives? 83% of Americans will earn more than their parents. 73% of Americans will spend at least 1 year in the top 20% of income earners in their lifetime. https://fee.org/articles/income-mobility-data-show-america-still-very-much-the-land-of-opportunity/ https://fee.org/articles/income-mobility-data-show-america-s... Also, there is no such thing as "trickle down economics", that is an insult leveled by critics of the idea you should let people spend and invest their own money rather than the government. The results speak for themselves and are astounding. The poorest person alive in a first world country today lives better than the richest 100 years ago. This was all because of investment. Clearly investment, or "trickling down" (as its critics like to call it) isn't just effective, it is the only thing that works to make people's lives better.

brabel 5y ago
> The poorest person alive in a first world country today lives better than the richest 100 years ago. You seem like an intelligent person, but then you go and spit some incredibly stupid sentence like that. Do you think the king of England 100 years ago lived worse than any of the thousands of homeless people camping on the streets of your country? In fact, in relative terms, some of the wealthiest people on the planet lived in the golden age of aristocracy a hundred+ years ago.
Frost1x 5y ago
>The poorest person alive in a first world country today lives better than the richest 100 years ago. What? Not even remotely close. John D Rockefeller was shrouded in wealth about 100 years ago. If you think the poorest, homeless person now stuck on the streets lives better than Rockefeller did, you're confused. Do not conflate general human progress of what's available with more knowledge, science, and basic technology with what a time period normalized standard of living looks like. You can't attribute economics directly with progress (it is a factor but not the only factor), otherwise you could very easily make a valid argument for an authoritarian government and economy like you see in China. China is arguably just as technologically advanced as the US. Now your middle income American might be considered as living better than Rockefeller depending on how you define quality of life. They have all the essentials they need to survive and access to more progress than Rockefeller did during his time period. They also have significantly less free time and less resources to explore the current space of possibilities whereas in the early 1900s, someone like Rockefeller had access to anything they wanted to do during that time period.
- mrjangles 5y ago
  >homeless person now stuck on the streets lives better than Rockefeller did, Ok good point, not the absolute lowest, but someone in the bottom 10% has access to food from all over the world that Rockefeller did not. They are usually overweight, which poor people back then were not. They have access to medicine the Rockerfeller couldn't dream of. >Do not conflate general human progress of what's available with more knowledge, science, and basic technology You seem to imagine that these things magically just appeared. They were created because humans with money invested in them. >China is arguably just as technologically advanced as the US. China stole every single thing it had from the US. They have developed almost zero technology. (You could very nearly say the same for Europe, though they are less socialist than China and so have developed some things on their own - barely). This is always the way. Countries with authoritarian, dominating governments never develop anything - they can't. They can only steal and destroy, they can't create. Individuals develop new things and push humanity forward and only countries that empower individuals can create. You need to ask the question about why humans have progressed so much, and why all that advancement happened in certain places only and not others.
  - nickflood 5y ago
    Hey, Europe is not that bad. ASML is the leading semiconductor fab tech producer is based in Europe. They use optics from Carl Zeiss which is a german firm. ARM chip corporation is a UK company. So, like, stuff happens in Europe which is essential to how the world functions today and which isn't at all easy to replicate somewhere else.
  - eeronen 5y ago
    > China stole every single thing it had from the US. They have developed almost zero technology. (You could very nearly say the same for Europe, though they are less socialist than China and so have developed some things on their own - barely). What the hell are you talking about? Are you really saying all that R&D spending in other countries is going towards copy-pasting stuff made in the US? https://data.oecd.org/chart/6yu7 https://data.oecd.org/chart/6yu7
socialdemocrat 5y ago
Most western countries have equal or higher number of foreign born citizens relative to the US without having American levels of inequality. Remember that Europe e.g. is closer to areas of major conflicts such as the middle East and Africa which produces a lot of refugees. Americans like to talk about how dirt poor Mexico is, but it is actually richer than plenty of Eastern European countries. Not to mention pretty much all of Africa, which sends refugees and illegals across the Mediterranean. If you look at income mobility across different countries you will find that the US has quite bad income mobility. The US ranks below old class societies such as Britain.
cycomanic 5y ago
It's funny how you complain about the quality of the original article and then bring up your cited one, which is so obviously biased it's not even funny. Just to pick up on the income mobility. The US is one of the worst countries regarding income mobility while at the same time one of the ones implementing the most "trickle down" economic policies [1]. The contrast is particularly stark when comparing to the Scandinavian countries, which get often called "socialist" in the US. So by your own metric, trickle down does not work, because it leads to worse outcomes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_...
monocasa 5y ago
Those numbers are out of date. Only something like 50% of millenials are doing better than their parents at the same time in their life, and it looks like genz is going to fall off even harder. https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/11/politics/millennials-income-stalled-upward-mobility-us/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/11/politics/millennials-income-s... As a side note, I personally know some former FEE writers, and they left because the editors wouldn't give a fair shake to facts that went against the world view they were trying to push. One of them actually went from being a FEE writer style libertarian to being a socialist over the whole thing.
nouveaux 5y ago
"Clearly investment, or "trickling down" (as its critics like to call it) isn't just effective, it is the only thing that works to make people's lives better." I'm not sure if you're being hyperbolic or not but innovation is often cited as the thing that improves people's lives. You might say that innovation requires investment but there have been many examples of poor people, without outside investment, innovating to make people's lives better.
- mrjangles 5y ago
  >You might say that innovation requires investment but there have been many examples of poor people, without outside investment, innovating to make people's lives better. What examples?
vanusa 5y ago
Also, there is no such thing as "trickle down economics", Whether or not is is, or ever was a a thing -- it absolutely was the unquestioned gospel among U.S. conservatives (and most definitely a staple in the rhetoric of the Reagan administration) in the 80s-90s, and continues to suffuse the current debate, albeit in other guises -- "income mobility" -- up through the current day.
ace_of_spades 5y ago
Clearly investment doesn’t depend on actual work being done… /s What makes people’s lives better is services being rendered for mutual benefit. Investment does play a role in facilitating this but mostly because our monetary system is set up in a way that investment is necessary to service outstanding debt. It could be different.

brabel 5y ago

> The poorest person alive in a first world country today lives better than the richest 100 years ago. You seem like an intelligent person, but then you go and spit some incredibly stupid sentence like that. Do you think the king of England 100 years ago lived worse than any of the thousands of homeless people camping on the streets of your country? In fact, in relative terms, some of the wealthiest people on the planet lived in the golden age of aristocracy a hundred+ years ago.

Frost1x 5y ago

>The poorest person alive in a first world country today lives better than the richest 100 years ago. What? Not even remotely close. John D Rockefeller was shrouded in wealth about 100 years ago. If you think the poorest, homeless person now stuck on the streets lives better than Rockefeller did, you're confused. Do not conflate general human progress of what's available with more knowledge, science, and basic technology with what a time period normalized standard of living looks like. You can't attribute economics directly with progress (it is a factor but not the only factor), otherwise you could very easily make a valid argument for an authoritarian government and economy like you see in China. China is arguably just as technologically advanced as the US. Now your middle income American might be considered as living better than Rockefeller depending on how you define quality of life. They have all the essentials they need to survive and access to more progress than Rockefeller did during his time period. They also have significantly less free time and less resources to explore the current space of possibilities whereas in the early 1900s, someone like Rockefeller had access to anything they wanted to do during that time period.

mrjangles 5y ago
>homeless person now stuck on the streets lives better than Rockefeller did, Ok good point, not the absolute lowest, but someone in the bottom 10% has access to food from all over the world that Rockefeller did not. They are usually overweight, which poor people back then were not. They have access to medicine the Rockerfeller couldn't dream of. >Do not conflate general human progress of what's available with more knowledge, science, and basic technology You seem to imagine that these things magically just appeared. They were created because humans with money invested in them. >China is arguably just as technologically advanced as the US. China stole every single thing it had from the US. They have developed almost zero technology. (You could very nearly say the same for Europe, though they are less socialist than China and so have developed some things on their own - barely). This is always the way. Countries with authoritarian, dominating governments never develop anything - they can't. They can only steal and destroy, they can't create. Individuals develop new things and push humanity forward and only countries that empower individuals can create. You need to ask the question about why humans have progressed so much, and why all that advancement happened in certain places only and not others.
- nickflood 5y ago
  Hey, Europe is not that bad. ASML is the leading semiconductor fab tech producer is based in Europe. They use optics from Carl Zeiss which is a german firm. ARM chip corporation is a UK company. So, like, stuff happens in Europe which is essential to how the world functions today and which isn't at all easy to replicate somewhere else.
- eeronen 5y ago
  > China stole every single thing it had from the US. They have developed almost zero technology. (You could very nearly say the same for Europe, though they are less socialist than China and so have developed some things on their own - barely). What the hell are you talking about? Are you really saying all that R&D spending in other countries is going towards copy-pasting stuff made in the US? https://data.oecd.org/chart/6yu7 https://data.oecd.org/chart/6yu7

socialdemocrat 5y ago

Most western countries have equal or higher number of foreign born citizens relative to the US without having American levels of inequality. Remember that Europe e.g. is closer to areas of major conflicts such as the middle East and Africa which produces a lot of refugees. Americans like to talk about how dirt poor Mexico is, but it is actually richer than plenty of Eastern European countries. Not to mention pretty much all of Africa, which sends refugees and illegals across the Mediterranean. If you look at income mobility across different countries you will find that the US has quite bad income mobility. The US ranks below old class societies such as Britain.

cycomanic 5y ago

It's funny how you complain about the quality of the original article and then bring up your cited one, which is so obviously biased it's not even funny. Just to pick up on the income mobility. The US is one of the worst countries regarding income mobility while at the same time one of the ones implementing the most "trickle down" economic policies [1]. The contrast is particularly stark when comparing to the Scandinavian countries, which get often called "socialist" in the US. So by your own metric, trickle down does not work, because it leads to worse outcomes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_...

monocasa 5y ago

Those numbers are out of date. Only something like 50% of millenials are doing better than their parents at the same time in their life, and it looks like genz is going to fall off even harder. https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/11/politics/millennials-income-stalled-upward-mobility-us/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/11/politics/millennials-income-s... As a side note, I personally know some former FEE writers, and they left because the editors wouldn't give a fair shake to facts that went against the world view they were trying to push. One of them actually went from being a FEE writer style libertarian to being a socialist over the whole thing.

nouveaux 5y ago

"Clearly investment, or "trickling down" (as its critics like to call it) isn't just effective, it is the only thing that works to make people's lives better." I'm not sure if you're being hyperbolic or not but innovation is often cited as the thing that improves people's lives. You might say that innovation requires investment but there have been many examples of poor people, without outside investment, innovating to make people's lives better.

mrjangles 5y ago
>You might say that innovation requires investment but there have been many examples of poor people, without outside investment, innovating to make people's lives better. What examples?

vanusa 5y ago

Also, there is no such thing as "trickle down economics", Whether or not is is, or ever was a a thing -- it absolutely was the unquestioned gospel among U.S. conservatives (and most definitely a staple in the rhetoric of the Reagan administration) in the 80s-90s, and continues to suffuse the current debate, albeit in other guises -- "income mobility" -- up through the current day.

ace_of_spades 5y ago

Clearly investment doesn’t depend on actual work being done… /s What makes people’s lives better is services being rendered for mutual benefit. Investment does play a role in facilitating this but mostly because our monetary system is set up in a way that investment is necessary to service outstanding debt. It could be different.