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I think it's not a silly conversation at all. It hints to something that is so fundamental about existence. You seem stuck in circular reasoning. The point is

by vekker 5y ago

I think it's not a silly conversation at all. It hints to something that is so fundamental about existence. You seem stuck in circular reasoning. The point is that when in an altered state, your conventional, "sober" model of reality breaks down and no longer applies. I think people "break through" when they realize their model of reality was constructed according to what they perceived through their available sense doors, but it's still just a construction, a model, a simulation, not reality itself. Even though it might be consistent when sober, it's self-referential consistency.

jklinger410 5y ago
> The point is that when in an altered state, your conventional, "sober" model of reality breaks down and no longer applies. Your sober model of reality 100% still applies. You are simply mis-perceiving what is happening in reality. The reality your mind is attempting to model is the only one that exists. Inducing chemicals that hinder your ability to perceive it does not indicate that it is a simulation. It is not a self-referential consistency because it is being tracked by many people, many forms of study, many computers and machines, and is repeatable. Chemically induced states of hallucination are none of the above. I will leave the undoing of reality to string theorists and super-computers.
- iamthrowaway123 5y ago
  Sometimes I wonder if the people that claim they don't have an 'internal dialogue' in their head just haven't noticed it because they don't know where to look for it There are many parts of conscious experience, that might not be noticed, but become extremely obvious in a Psychedelic state. It is like one of those hidden-image patterns. You would never know theres an image there, but once you see it, you can't unsee it - and you are struck by how blind you were to it before. There are many correct ways to experience reality, operating off of the same source-of-truth data. Someone born with one eye can go their entire lives not knowing what it's like to _experience_ depth perception. You can give them all the cameras in the world, and they can fully understand the spacial relationships of all objects in the room, but they still wont be able to _experience_ depth, in their mental model of the world, like everyone else. They can't even begin to imagine it. So, the carpet might not actually be swirling with fractal patterns. But It can be insightful to experience love as a fractal. You might notice parts of it that seemed one dimensional to you before. woh man, that tree is beautiful.

by vekker 5y ago

jklinger410 5y ago

> The point is that when in an altered state, your conventional, "sober" model of reality breaks down and no longer applies. Your sober model of reality 100% still applies. You are simply mis-perceiving what is happening in reality. The reality your mind is attempting to model is the only one that exists. Inducing chemicals that hinder your ability to perceive it does not indicate that it is a simulation. It is not a self-referential consistency because it is being tracked by many people, many forms of study, many computers and machines, and is repeatable. Chemically induced states of hallucination are none of the above. I will leave the undoing of reality to string theorists and super-computers.

iamthrowaway123 5y ago
Sometimes I wonder if the people that claim they don't have an 'internal dialogue' in their head just haven't noticed it because they don't know where to look for it There are many parts of conscious experience, that might not be noticed, but become extremely obvious in a Psychedelic state. It is like one of those hidden-image patterns. You would never know theres an image there, but once you see it, you can't unsee it - and you are struck by how blind you were to it before. There are many correct ways to experience reality, operating off of the same source-of-truth data. Someone born with one eye can go their entire lives not knowing what it's like to _experience_ depth perception. You can give them all the cameras in the world, and they can fully understand the spacial relationships of all objects in the room, but they still wont be able to _experience_ depth, in their mental model of the world, like everyone else. They can't even begin to imagine it. So, the carpet might not actually be swirling with fractal patterns. But It can be insightful to experience love as a fractal. You might notice parts of it that seemed one dimensional to you before. woh man, that tree is beautiful.