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Both parties do it from the other's perspective. E.g. Republicans complain about the left injecting politics and other issues (e.g. Trans and race topics) into

by zo1 5y ago

Both parties do it from the other's perspective. E.g. Republicans complain about the left injecting politics and other issues (e.g. Trans and race topics) into primary school curriculums, which is arguably indoctrination and programming rather than genuine debate. To them this is straight out of the Nazi playbook of using children to control society. Point is, don't think that only one side has genuine concerns about the other trying to "undermine democracy". The whole thing is broken.

Nursie 5y ago
I'm sorry but none of that is remotely equivalent to the deliberate and overt attempts to undermine democracy that the republican party have been involved in over the last 12 months. You don't have to commit to the other side, nobody says you have to love the democrats and all they stand for, I surely don't. But you can't look at the actions of the republican party over the last year and see them as anything other than anti-democratic and dangerous?
- caeril 5y ago
  I can't tell if this is a troll or not. HN is explicitly anti-political, but it's difficult to resist the bait. Dang, if you have an issue here, please consider the obvious bait, predicated on lies. There was a coordinated campaign amongst ALL left-leaning media organizations, including social media like Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc, to suppress a materially important story about the Biden family influence with Ukrainian and Chinese counter-parties just a few weeks ahead of the election. The story, broke by the NY Post, was factually correct, but deemed "misinformation" on dubious grounds by all major media apparatuses, because it did not support their chosen candidate. There was no other reason. There is NOTHING MORE ANTI-DEMOCRATIC than a Press that lies to the very people tasked with deciding elections. And that press overwhelmingly leans in a specific direction. To claim that the Right is uniquely anti-democratic is both insane and factually incorrect. Hanlon's Razor rarely applies on HN (a bastion of competent, high-IQ posters), so it's fair to say that you are lying out of malice, not some sort of innocent misunderstanding of reality. Your bad-faith arguments are ridiculous and not grounded in any semblance of reality.
  - esarbe 5y ago
    You mean the Biden-Ukraine conspiracy theory [0]. That one's is bogus. Trump even got in trouble for trying to get Zelensky to publicly announce an investigation. > The story, broke by the NY Post, was factually correct, I wouldn't consider the NY Post to be a reliable news source[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biden-Ukraine_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biden-Ukraine_conspiracy_theor... [1] https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/
    - caeril 5y ago
      You may be missing my point, here. From the Wikipedia article posted: "Fellow press outlets The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal stated that they could not verify the data provided by the New York Post independently" and "PolitiFact wrote in June 2021: "Over time, there has been less doubt that the laptop did in fact belong to Hunter Biden"" Contrast this with three years of mainstream media laundering absurd, and equally unsubstantiated stories of collusion predicated on the Steele Dossier. My point has precisely zero to do with the validity of either story, but to do with the obvious full-court press by your side to smear the opposition and deny dissemination of reporting predicated on equally (in)valid source materials to point out that one side is not uniquely corrupt in the attempt to undermine democracy. Everybody lies. And the OP's attempt to paint one side as some manner of angelic bastion of virtuousness is patently insane, disingenuous. and absurd. Human nature is what it is, and everyone involved here is evil. There are no angels. There are no good guys, but one side definitely has control of the microphone.
      - esarbe 5y ago
        Thanks for the clarification! I might not agree with your conclusion but I appreciate the effort to explain the point your making.
      - Nursie 5y ago
        > And the OP's attempt to paint one side as some manner of angelic bastion of virtuousness is patently insane, disingenuous. and absurd Your attempt to paint my comments that way is more absurd, as I did no such thing. > everyone involved here is evil Maybe so, but one side literally just tried to overturn an election they lost to hang on to power. They're playing a different game.
esarbe 5y ago
I agree that the whole thing is horribly broken. The two party system, the gerrymandering, the legalized bribery of congresspeople, the influence of the media in deciding who's going to participate in debates, ... The list goes on and on. > left injecting politics and other issues (e.g. Trans and race topics) into primary school I'm not sure that this is actually a thing. But if you have any - reliable - reporting or study about that, I'd be willing to be - hehe - educated.
- isoskeles 5y ago
  The recent Virginia gubernatorial race seemed focused on that issue.
  - esarbe 5y ago
    I don't think that this is actually a thing that's happening, in schools. Do you any reporting or study in that regard?
jaybrendansmith 5y ago
We need to stop the false equivalence. If you are conservative, you may genuinely fear what the Democrats may do if they have enough power. But that fear, no matter how legitimate, does not give you the right to take away somebody's right to vote, or make it more difficult, or overturn elections, or disallow ballots, or give power to overrule vote results through State legislatures, or Gerrymander districts, or force through Supreme Court justices. These are things Republicans have been doing for over 20 years. At this point the minority is now effectively in charge of the judiciary and legislature, blocking and overruling things the majority has wanted for decades. The right to vote is clearly enshrined in our Constitution, full stop. If you don't believe in that, I would encourage you to go out and meet people that are not like you, and free your mind.

by zo1 5y ago

Nursie 5y ago

I'm sorry but none of that is remotely equivalent to the deliberate and overt attempts to undermine democracy that the republican party have been involved in over the last 12 months. You don't have to commit to the other side, nobody says you have to love the democrats and all they stand for, I surely don't. But you can't look at the actions of the republican party over the last year and see them as anything other than anti-democratic and dangerous?

caeril 5y ago
I can't tell if this is a troll or not. HN is explicitly anti-political, but it's difficult to resist the bait. Dang, if you have an issue here, please consider the obvious bait, predicated on lies. There was a coordinated campaign amongst ALL left-leaning media organizations, including social media like Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc, to suppress a materially important story about the Biden family influence with Ukrainian and Chinese counter-parties just a few weeks ahead of the election. The story, broke by the NY Post, was factually correct, but deemed "misinformation" on dubious grounds by all major media apparatuses, because it did not support their chosen candidate. There was no other reason. There is NOTHING MORE ANTI-DEMOCRATIC than a Press that lies to the very people tasked with deciding elections. And that press overwhelmingly leans in a specific direction. To claim that the Right is uniquely anti-democratic is both insane and factually incorrect. Hanlon's Razor rarely applies on HN (a bastion of competent, high-IQ posters), so it's fair to say that you are lying out of malice, not some sort of innocent misunderstanding of reality. Your bad-faith arguments are ridiculous and not grounded in any semblance of reality.
- esarbe 5y ago
  You mean the Biden-Ukraine conspiracy theory [0]. That one's is bogus. Trump even got in trouble for trying to get Zelensky to publicly announce an investigation. > The story, broke by the NY Post, was factually correct, I wouldn't consider the NY Post to be a reliable news source[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biden-Ukraine_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biden-Ukraine_conspiracy_theor... [1] https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/
  - caeril 5y ago
    You may be missing my point, here. From the Wikipedia article posted: "Fellow press outlets The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal stated that they could not verify the data provided by the New York Post independently" and "PolitiFact wrote in June 2021: "Over time, there has been less doubt that the laptop did in fact belong to Hunter Biden"" Contrast this with three years of mainstream media laundering absurd, and equally unsubstantiated stories of collusion predicated on the Steele Dossier. My point has precisely zero to do with the validity of either story, but to do with the obvious full-court press by your side to smear the opposition and deny dissemination of reporting predicated on equally (in)valid source materials to point out that one side is not uniquely corrupt in the attempt to undermine democracy. Everybody lies. And the OP's attempt to paint one side as some manner of angelic bastion of virtuousness is patently insane, disingenuous. and absurd. Human nature is what it is, and everyone involved here is evil. There are no angels. There are no good guys, but one side definitely has control of the microphone.
    - esarbe 5y ago
      Thanks for the clarification! I might not agree with your conclusion but I appreciate the effort to explain the point your making.
    - Nursie 5y ago
      > And the OP's attempt to paint one side as some manner of angelic bastion of virtuousness is patently insane, disingenuous. and absurd Your attempt to paint my comments that way is more absurd, as I did no such thing. > everyone involved here is evil Maybe so, but one side literally just tried to overturn an election they lost to hang on to power. They're playing a different game.

esarbe 5y ago

I agree that the whole thing is horribly broken. The two party system, the gerrymandering, the legalized bribery of congresspeople, the influence of the media in deciding who's going to participate in debates, ... The list goes on and on. > left injecting politics and other issues (e.g. Trans and race topics) into primary school I'm not sure that this is actually a thing. But if you have any - reliable - reporting or study about that, I'd be willing to be - hehe - educated.

isoskeles 5y ago
The recent Virginia gubernatorial race seemed focused on that issue.
- esarbe 5y ago
  I don't think that this is actually a thing that's happening, in schools. Do you any reporting or study in that regard?

jaybrendansmith 5y ago

We need to stop the false equivalence. If you are conservative, you may genuinely fear what the Democrats may do if they have enough power. But that fear, no matter how legitimate, does not give you the right to take away somebody's right to vote, or make it more difficult, or overturn elections, or disallow ballots, or give power to overrule vote results through State legislatures, or Gerrymander districts, or force through Supreme Court justices. These are things Republicans have been doing for over 20 years. At this point the minority is now effectively in charge of the judiciary and legislature, blocking and overruling things the majority has wanted for decades. The right to vote is clearly enshrined in our Constitution, full stop. If you don't believe in that, I would encourage you to go out and meet people that are not like you, and free your mind.