4 ms·

I thought the protagonist wasn't nearly as talented as the culture AIs (even the ones that are not all that powerful)?

hoseja 5y ago
I don't think a full Culture Mind is present but he outstrips his spacecraft's ability to help him with preparation in later stages of the competition. I clearly remember this.
- macmac 5y ago
  At least that is what the ship (SC) wants him to think.
  - WJW 5y ago
    Indeed. (spoiler following) The plot basically revolves around SC manipulating both Gurgeh and the Empire of Azad in an ever bigger and complex game than the one in the book. Given how Banks describes the Minds in other books it would be extremely curious if they wouldn't crush any biological player in any normal game the same way chess computers crush humans these days. But, it is possible that a more limited mind like the security drone could be outstripped by Gurgeh. In one of the other books they do mention that "smaller" machines like environmental suits and small drones get more limited minds than full starships as it would be cruel to put a fully capable Mind in such a limited body.
    - stavros 5y ago
      How did I miss this plot point? It's been a while, but I remember focusing on the game Gurgeh played. Maybe I just don't remember it now.
      - WJW 5y ago
        The last page of the book gives it away: (MASSIVE SPOILER OBV) The security drone who came with Gurgeh to Azad was the same drone he meets during the introduction chapters who was "rejected" from SC and offers to let him cheat (though it was wearing a disguise at the time). Then, after he cheats he basically gets blackmailed into going to Azad and conveniently this "non-SC" drone comes with him in a very "non-SC" ship that claims to have its weapons removed but doesn't. At some crucial points the security drone influences Gurgeh to play the best he can, such as when he takes him on a tour of the slums and the Culture-educated Gurgeh gets so furious at the mistreatment he witnesses that he absolutely crushes his opponent in the next match. They mention in one of the final chapters that the minds wanted the Azad empire to become a better place since it was really shitty to its citizens. However, they couldn't just invade and impose laws because they're the Culture, and the Azad empire kept claiming moral superiority because they had this one thing (the Game) that they thought the Culture couldn't match. The Minds knew Gurgeh was talented enough to get far enough in the tournament that the Azad Empire would be seriously shaken, because if this single foreigner can beat so many of the best and brightest in the Empire at the thing it claims to do best then what could the entire Culture do? This turns out to have been correct, at the end of the book the Azad empire starts to collapse because they no longer trust their leadership, who have been proven to be incompetent at the very thing they claim to do best. Beaten by a human btw, not even by one of the god-machines that the Culture also has. Having predicted that this would happen, the Minds set out to manipulate Gurgeh into going to Azad to play the Game and by doing so bring about regime change. The Minds and/or SC were playing a much higher level game than Gurgeh all along, he was merely one of the pieces they used to play.
        stavros 5y ago
        Ahh, thank you! Now that you recount it, it all comes back to me. I should read more Banks, he's a fantastic writer.
        7thaccount 5y ago
        Yes, at the end you start to question just who the player of games actually was.
        5y ago
thom 5y ago
Is that clear from the text? Gurgeh supposedly perceives the result of the last game before the AIs so we’re led to believe he’s seeing deeper. Obviously he could have been wrong and still won. The AIs lied to and manipulated him the entire time so it’s hard to know, but it would seem a very odd weakness for an AI to have. I think Banks pretty quickly recanted on the subject of the Culture’s ‘referrers’ but I don’t think he plays a full Mind, so it’s not a clear cut conversation.
- joshuamorton 5y ago
  My recollection is that by the end of the novel its clear that Gurgeh was never competitive with the ship, although he might have been competitive with his security drone (although even that isn't clear, since <spoilers> imply that the security drone is a better game player than it pretends to be). To me it felt like the whole point of the novel was that Gurgeh was a piece in an even larger game and he didn't even realize it. So the idea that the people playing the "bigger" game couldn't compete in the smaller game seems silly, and I think they mention that they used Gurgeh instead of an AI to make it appear fair to the inhabitants of the planet.
  - sdenton4 5y ago
    Yeah, I thought it was clear from the beginning of the book that no humans were even remotely competitive with any AI (including the main character) but that human game players were sort of an aesthetic throwback, like dog-racing in an era of F1 cars.
    - 7thaccount 5y ago
      This was my understanding as well, but I might have read into it. The culture minds are in freaking hyperspace to get around lightspeed limitations on computations. He for sure can't beat that, but he could beat someone on another planet at their own game that he literally just learned in the year it took to get there. A game that permeates every aspect of their civilization. I do assume his drone could beat him as well, but I'm not sure.

I don't think a full Culture Mind is present but he outstrips his spacecraft's ability to help him with preparation in later stages of the competition. I clearly remember this.

macmac 5y ago
At least that is what the ship (SC) wants him to think.
- WJW 5y ago
  Indeed. (spoiler following) The plot basically revolves around SC manipulating both Gurgeh and the Empire of Azad in an ever bigger and complex game than the one in the book. Given how Banks describes the Minds in other books it would be extremely curious if they wouldn't crush any biological player in any normal game the same way chess computers crush humans these days. But, it is possible that a more limited mind like the security drone could be outstripped by Gurgeh. In one of the other books they do mention that "smaller" machines like environmental suits and small drones get more limited minds than full starships as it would be cruel to put a fully capable Mind in such a limited body.
  - stavros 5y ago
    How did I miss this plot point? It's been a while, but I remember focusing on the game Gurgeh played. Maybe I just don't remember it now.
    - WJW 5y ago
      The last page of the book gives it away: (MASSIVE SPOILER OBV) The security drone who came with Gurgeh to Azad was the same drone he meets during the introduction chapters who was "rejected" from SC and offers to let him cheat (though it was wearing a disguise at the time). Then, after he cheats he basically gets blackmailed into going to Azad and conveniently this "non-SC" drone comes with him in a very "non-SC" ship that claims to have its weapons removed but doesn't. At some crucial points the security drone influences Gurgeh to play the best he can, such as when he takes him on a tour of the slums and the Culture-educated Gurgeh gets so furious at the mistreatment he witnesses that he absolutely crushes his opponent in the next match. They mention in one of the final chapters that the minds wanted the Azad empire to become a better place since it was really shitty to its citizens. However, they couldn't just invade and impose laws because they're the Culture, and the Azad empire kept claiming moral superiority because they had this one thing (the Game) that they thought the Culture couldn't match. The Minds knew Gurgeh was talented enough to get far enough in the tournament that the Azad Empire would be seriously shaken, because if this single foreigner can beat so many of the best and brightest in the Empire at the thing it claims to do best then what could the entire Culture do? This turns out to have been correct, at the end of the book the Azad empire starts to collapse because they no longer trust their leadership, who have been proven to be incompetent at the very thing they claim to do best. Beaten by a human btw, not even by one of the god-machines that the Culture also has. Having predicted that this would happen, the Minds set out to manipulate Gurgeh into going to Azad to play the Game and by doing so bring about regime change. The Minds and/or SC were playing a much higher level game than Gurgeh all along, he was merely one of the pieces they used to play.
      - stavros 5y ago
        Ahh, thank you! Now that you recount it, it all comes back to me. I should read more Banks, he's a fantastic writer.
      - 7thaccount 5y ago
        Yes, at the end you start to question just who the player of games actually was.
        5y ago

thom 5y ago

Is that clear from the text? Gurgeh supposedly perceives the result of the last game before the AIs so we’re led to believe he’s seeing deeper. Obviously he could have been wrong and still won. The AIs lied to and manipulated him the entire time so it’s hard to know, but it would seem a very odd weakness for an AI to have. I think Banks pretty quickly recanted on the subject of the Culture’s ‘referrers’ but I don’t think he plays a full Mind, so it’s not a clear cut conversation.

joshuamorton 5y ago
My recollection is that by the end of the novel its clear that Gurgeh was never competitive with the ship, although he might have been competitive with his security drone (although even that isn't clear, since <spoilers> imply that the security drone is a better game player than it pretends to be). To me it felt like the whole point of the novel was that Gurgeh was a piece in an even larger game and he didn't even realize it. So the idea that the people playing the "bigger" game couldn't compete in the smaller game seems silly, and I think they mention that they used Gurgeh instead of an AI to make it appear fair to the inhabitants of the planet.
- sdenton4 5y ago
  Yeah, I thought it was clear from the beginning of the book that no humans were even remotely competitive with any AI (including the main character) but that human game players were sort of an aesthetic throwback, like dog-racing in an era of F1 cars.
  - 7thaccount 5y ago
    This was my understanding as well, but I might have read into it. The culture minds are in freaking hyperspace to get around lightspeed limitations on computations. He for sure can't beat that, but he could beat someone on another planet at their own game that he literally just learned in the year it took to get there. A game that permeates every aspect of their civilization. I do assume his drone could beat him as well, but I'm not sure.