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You should really do more research because that's not how it'll work. The idea is that users will onboard straight to Layer 2 and stay on Layer 2. Layer 1 will

You should really do more research because that's not how it'll work. The idea is that users will onboard straight to Layer 2 and stay on Layer 2. Layer 1 will only be used by protocols and extremely important transactions like nation-state transactions. You'll also be able to move between L2's via bridging protocols like Hop. This isn't just Ethereum BTW. Other chains are moving to layer 2 rollups because that's just how blockchains scale. Ethereum is getting a lot of shit because it's dealing with unprecedented demand and it refuses to cut corners on important things like decentralization. Other chains will have the same fate if they grow large enough.

shiohime 5y ago
I'm simply stating how Arbitrum works today. And sure, once there's more adoption on L2s then there will be a reason to stay in the ecosystem, and I do get that it's inevitable that we'll have a multichain future (we have a multichain present anyways), but in this model I just don't understand why ETH has value in the thousands of dollars per token. The answer is simply amounting to "you cannot afford our chain so go use a different one". So I'll happily work with a more affordable chain with higher throughput. I hope that the ETH vision works out because right now it's kind of a clusterfuck tbh. But until the planned vision is not theory and is fully realized, I think it's absurd to refuse to work with other L1 solutions like Solana simply because Ethereum has a large head start on decentralization. I think that if people try some Web3 apps on a chain like Solana or Avalanche, more people would be excited about the potential that Web3 can bring. Instead, we have people blindly yelling about how NFTs are bad for the environment or whatever nonsense, or that it cost someone $100 to move $50. And regarding using ETH for nation state transactions, you can simply just use BTC for such important transactions. It's more decentralized than Ethereum and is just going to continue to decentralize.
- hanniabu 5y ago
  That's not how it works. Amazing how you can be so confident while being so wrong.
  - shiohime 5y ago
    Edit - my bad, seems like the week wait is from Arbitrum to ETH. Evidently missed that when I was trying to move funds from ETH to Arb. Ah well. Really though, unless these transactions become more obfuscated crosschain this ETH ecosystem feels like an over engineered nightmare on a chain that couldn't scale. I keep hearing from ETH maximalists like you that this is the only way, while hearing it does not have to be this way from your direct competitors.
    - serverholic 5y ago
      Ok let's talk about some ethereum competitors. Take Solana for example. It takes a powerful computer with 128gb+ of RAM just to run a Solana node. You can run the ETH software on a raspberry pi. High hardware requirements means fewer people can afford to join the network. This makes Solana more centralized. They also do some sketchy things. For example, in proof-of-stake algorithms the nodes vote on the next block. Solana counts votes as transactions which inflate their transactions-per-second numbers. The Solana network has also been taken down by a software bug. This is much less likely to happen with Ethereum since there are multiple, independent development teams writing Ethereum client software. A bug in one client will only take down part of the network but not the whole thing. Let's take another popular competitor Algorand. With Algorand they have two types of nodes relay and participant. The relay nodes take care of consensus. However, you have to send in an application to the Algorand foundation just to be allowed to run a node. There is not a lot of info on relay nodes but apparently the harware requirements are non-trivial. Cardano I don't know as much about. However, there has been some debate over whether it's PoS algorithm is too similar to DPoS with similar vulnerabilities. Also, the founder of Cardano, Charles Hoskinson, is a known psycho and liar. This isn't just my opinion, just google him. Polkadot has parachains which is kinda like sharding. However people are also developing Layer 2 rollups for polkadot. This helps prove my point that layer 2 isn't just an ethereum thing. I don't really have issues with Bitcoin on a technical level, although I think they are too slow to change and adapt. Bitcoin also has multi-dollar transaction fees just like Ethereum which helps prove my point. They are also looking into layer 2 with the lightning network which, again, helps prove my point. Overall, I really don't see any compelling alternative to what Ethereum is doing. Other chains are starting to look into similar Layer 2 solutions. Other chains are cutting corners to boost their transaction-per-second numbers. And other chains are run by questionable folks.

shiohime 5y ago

I'm simply stating how Arbitrum works today. And sure, once there's more adoption on L2s then there will be a reason to stay in the ecosystem, and I do get that it's inevitable that we'll have a multichain future (we have a multichain present anyways), but in this model I just don't understand why ETH has value in the thousands of dollars per token. The answer is simply amounting to "you cannot afford our chain so go use a different one". So I'll happily work with a more affordable chain with higher throughput. I hope that the ETH vision works out because right now it's kind of a clusterfuck tbh. But until the planned vision is not theory and is fully realized, I think it's absurd to refuse to work with other L1 solutions like Solana simply because Ethereum has a large head start on decentralization. I think that if people try some Web3 apps on a chain like Solana or Avalanche, more people would be excited about the potential that Web3 can bring. Instead, we have people blindly yelling about how NFTs are bad for the environment or whatever nonsense, or that it cost someone $100 to move $50. And regarding using ETH for nation state transactions, you can simply just use BTC for such important transactions. It's more decentralized than Ethereum and is just going to continue to decentralize.

hanniabu 5y ago
That's not how it works. Amazing how you can be so confident while being so wrong.
- shiohime 5y ago
  Edit - my bad, seems like the week wait is from Arbitrum to ETH. Evidently missed that when I was trying to move funds from ETH to Arb. Ah well. Really though, unless these transactions become more obfuscated crosschain this ETH ecosystem feels like an over engineered nightmare on a chain that couldn't scale. I keep hearing from ETH maximalists like you that this is the only way, while hearing it does not have to be this way from your direct competitors.
  - serverholic 5y ago
    Ok let's talk about some ethereum competitors. Take Solana for example. It takes a powerful computer with 128gb+ of RAM just to run a Solana node. You can run the ETH software on a raspberry pi. High hardware requirements means fewer people can afford to join the network. This makes Solana more centralized. They also do some sketchy things. For example, in proof-of-stake algorithms the nodes vote on the next block. Solana counts votes as transactions which inflate their transactions-per-second numbers. The Solana network has also been taken down by a software bug. This is much less likely to happen with Ethereum since there are multiple, independent development teams writing Ethereum client software. A bug in one client will only take down part of the network but not the whole thing. Let's take another popular competitor Algorand. With Algorand they have two types of nodes relay and participant. The relay nodes take care of consensus. However, you have to send in an application to the Algorand foundation just to be allowed to run a node. There is not a lot of info on relay nodes but apparently the harware requirements are non-trivial. Cardano I don't know as much about. However, there has been some debate over whether it's PoS algorithm is too similar to DPoS with similar vulnerabilities. Also, the founder of Cardano, Charles Hoskinson, is a known psycho and liar. This isn't just my opinion, just google him. Polkadot has parachains which is kinda like sharding. However people are also developing Layer 2 rollups for polkadot. This helps prove my point that layer 2 isn't just an ethereum thing. I don't really have issues with Bitcoin on a technical level, although I think they are too slow to change and adapt. Bitcoin also has multi-dollar transaction fees just like Ethereum which helps prove my point. They are also looking into layer 2 with the lightning network which, again, helps prove my point. Overall, I really don't see any compelling alternative to what Ethereum is doing. Other chains are starting to look into similar Layer 2 solutions. Other chains are cutting corners to boost their transaction-per-second numbers. And other chains are run by questionable folks.