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It's a very hard pill to swallow when those preferences are built on flawed data, and those preferences lead to choices that massively increase housing prices,

It's a very hard pill to swallow when those preferences are built on flawed data, and those preferences lead to choices that massively increase housing prices, exacerbate homelessness, destroy local businesses and indirectly contributes to climate change through increased vehicle usage

uberman 5y ago
You look only at the problem from your perspective. There are other perspectives as well. I'm not going to sugar coat it, public schooling is terrible in most dense large cities in America. Raising a kid in general is terrible in large cities. Without these perspectives it is bogus to claim "flawed data". Solve schooling and create safe places for children to grow and play without the need to constant adult supervision before condemning suburbia. I'm not saying that density is without merits but it is certainly not without flaws. BTW, I would love to know more about why you feel suburbia destroys local businesses and how it exacerbate homelessness, unless your argument is that higher density is more houses and thus fewer homeless. If you do believe this, you need to do some more research on the causes of chronic homelessness.
- nemothekid 5y ago
  >I'm not going to sugar coat it, public schooling is terrible in most dense large cities in America. I don't see how this is relevant to housing, unless you also believe public schooling worldwide is terrible in most dense cities. It's a uniquely American problem that public schooling is terrible in all but the most elite of zip codes. Rural schools suffer the same problem too, and it has little to do with housing (except for, surprisingly, Texas, which allocates funding for schools at the state level). In short, in the US, school quality is not a function of density; it's a function of funding; and in the US school funding is primarily allocated from property taxes. >BTW, I would love to know more about why you feel suburbia destroys local businesses and how it exacerbate homelessness, Suburban zoning (as designed in America) lead to strip malls and big box dependence. When every store is 10 miles from each other, you end up in a situation where Walmart becomes the only game in town. Secondly, the parking requirements also increase the fixed costs for any business; which limits the type of businesses you can open. You can see this effect in a the types of businesses and restaurants you have in San Jose vs San Francisco. San Jose is a larger city than SF but is far more hostile to local businesses. To be clear, I'm not advocating that every city should be Manhattan. The missing middle housing (https://missingmiddlehousing.com/ https://missingmiddlehousing.com/) has been posted a number of times, and Not Just Bikes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0) goes into it as well. There's a middle ground that is better than American designed suburbs that aren't as suffocating as Manhattan.
  - AlbertCory 5y ago
    You are stating an opinion ("it's [school quality] a function of funding") which is a highly questionable statement as a fact. A simple plot of funding per student vs test scores would lay that to rest. Some of the worst school systems in the country spend the most per student. If we went to worldwide data, I don't think we would find that Singapore and Finland spend more than the US on schools, but their schools are vastly superior. (A real comparison would involve some serious economic analysis; maybe someone's done that?) > "San Jose is a larger city than SF but is far more hostile to local businesses" Since I live in San Jose, I'd like to see what support you have for this statement. Taxes, regulations, crime, wages...?
    - nemothekid 5y ago
      Fine, I don't care about defending that point right now, as the main assertion I'm trying to dispel is that somehow schools are unilaterally worse in high density cities. By your own admission, Singapore has vastly superior schools despite having the largest population density in the world. Population density doesn't have an effect on school quality. >Since I live in San Jose, I'd like to see what support you have for this statement. Taxes, regulations, crime, wages...? Regulations. To be specific I'm talking about how housing density affects local businesses and minimum parking requirements for businesses is one of those regulations.
      - uberman 5y ago
        I feel rather confident that public schools in high density America are universally expensive, dilapidated, and crappy. Though to be fair, I only have first hand knowledge of SF, NYC, and Philly. I also have first had experiences with several small town schools in America and while I agree it is a mixed bag, what I can say is that community expectations make or break the school. I have lived in areas where the community had no expectation that their kids attend college and to no surprise, the quality of the school was crap. I currently live in a community that expects all children to go to college and thus the quality of the system is great.
      - AlbertCory 5y ago

uberman 5y ago

You look only at the problem from your perspective. There are other perspectives as well. I'm not going to sugar coat it, public schooling is terrible in most dense large cities in America. Raising a kid in general is terrible in large cities. Without these perspectives it is bogus to claim "flawed data". Solve schooling and create safe places for children to grow and play without the need to constant adult supervision before condemning suburbia. I'm not saying that density is without merits but it is certainly not without flaws. BTW, I would love to know more about why you feel suburbia destroys local businesses and how it exacerbate homelessness, unless your argument is that higher density is more houses and thus fewer homeless. If you do believe this, you need to do some more research on the causes of chronic homelessness.

nemothekid 5y ago
>I'm not going to sugar coat it, public schooling is terrible in most dense large cities in America. I don't see how this is relevant to housing, unless you also believe public schooling worldwide is terrible in most dense cities. It's a uniquely American problem that public schooling is terrible in all but the most elite of zip codes. Rural schools suffer the same problem too, and it has little to do with housing (except for, surprisingly, Texas, which allocates funding for schools at the state level). In short, in the US, school quality is not a function of density; it's a function of funding; and in the US school funding is primarily allocated from property taxes. >BTW, I would love to know more about why you feel suburbia destroys local businesses and how it exacerbate homelessness, Suburban zoning (as designed in America) lead to strip malls and big box dependence. When every store is 10 miles from each other, you end up in a situation where Walmart becomes the only game in town. Secondly, the parking requirements also increase the fixed costs for any business; which limits the type of businesses you can open. You can see this effect in a the types of businesses and restaurants you have in San Jose vs San Francisco. San Jose is a larger city than SF but is far more hostile to local businesses. To be clear, I'm not advocating that every city should be Manhattan. The missing middle housing (https://missingmiddlehousing.com/ https://missingmiddlehousing.com/) has been posted a number of times, and Not Just Bikes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0) goes into it as well. There's a middle ground that is better than American designed suburbs that aren't as suffocating as Manhattan.
- AlbertCory 5y ago
  You are stating an opinion ("it's [school quality] a function of funding") which is a highly questionable statement as a fact. A simple plot of funding per student vs test scores would lay that to rest. Some of the worst school systems in the country spend the most per student. If we went to worldwide data, I don't think we would find that Singapore and Finland spend more than the US on schools, but their schools are vastly superior. (A real comparison would involve some serious economic analysis; maybe someone's done that?) > "San Jose is a larger city than SF but is far more hostile to local businesses" Since I live in San Jose, I'd like to see what support you have for this statement. Taxes, regulations, crime, wages...?
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    Fine, I don't care about defending that point right now, as the main assertion I'm trying to dispel is that somehow schools are unilaterally worse in high density cities. By your own admission, Singapore has vastly superior schools despite having the largest population density in the world. Population density doesn't have an effect on school quality. >Since I live in San Jose, I'd like to see what support you have for this statement. Taxes, regulations, crime, wages...? Regulations. To be specific I'm talking about how housing density affects local businesses and minimum parking requirements for businesses is one of those regulations.
    - uberman 5y ago
      I feel rather confident that public schools in high density America are universally expensive, dilapidated, and crappy. Though to be fair, I only have first hand knowledge of SF, NYC, and Philly. I also have first had experiences with several small town schools in America and while I agree it is a mixed bag, what I can say is that community expectations make or break the school. I have lived in areas where the community had no expectation that their kids attend college and to no surprise, the quality of the school was crap. I currently live in a community that expects all children to go to college and thus the quality of the system is great.
    - AlbertCory 5y ago