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> you absolutely can increase the "number of BTC stored in customer FOO's account" entry in your database. I hope you realize you're not bringing a new argumen

> you absolutely can increase the "number of BTC stored in customer FOO's account" entry in your database. I hope you realize you're not bringing a new argument to the table. This is exactly what exchanges already do, which is why there's a saying: If you dont hold the private keys you don't own the coin. Engineers will eventually build a system that obsoletes the need for someone else to hold custody of your money, its the entire DeFi space that's under development right now. At that point there's very little a fractional reserve system can offer. Who's going to want to trade with you when the currency you got when you took out a loan isn't a bitcoin but "a bitcoin guaranteed by bank of america". There is an obvious difference because users cannot pull out the sum and hold the private keys to it. And if the bank does lend you real bitcoins to which you can own the private keys to. Simply put, that cannot be by definition fractionally reserved, because its the real deal. > The community is just full of goldbugs, which makes businesses actually operating in this manner today unattractive. Not even going to respond to this one. I'll let you guess the basic fallacy you're breaking here.

UncleMeat 5y ago
The claim appears to be that BTC will fix the problems caused by fractional reserve banking. This is silly if fractional reserve banking can exist just fine even if everything is denominated in BTC.
- RedBeetDeadpool 5y ago
  The claim is that fractional reserve banking will not be competitive enough to trading of the real thing so no one would want it to begin with. Tell me what would a fractionally reserved loan offer me that the actual amount that I could possess would not? If I don't own the actual amount, then how do I send it to other people's wallets? And if the actual amount can never technically get into other people's wallets, why would anyone even accept them over the real thing? And if it does enter other people's wallets, mathematically how does the system fractionally reserve? And if people start accepting the loans themselves, would the loans be priced equally the same, or would it be traded at a different value? And if the loans and actual thing work in different valuations, then aren't they different currencies? So then what does one being fractionally reserved have anything to do with the original which is not? There are many alternate forms of btc already, just look at bitcoin cash, bitcoin sv, bitcoin gold, bitcoin sv, the list goes on and on and on and on. You can even claim litecoin, dogecoin, ethereum, tether, buttcoin, and all the other coins are its alternative forms, and they exist just fine. And exactly as you have said, fractional reserve btc banking will exist just fine as well, just like every last one of them. The question is: will it have anything at all to do with the original thing?
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    > Tell me what would a fractionally reserved loan offer me that the actual amount that I could possess would not? Slack in the motion of finances. It prevents the entire system from seizing up when there are problems. Yes, people who want to bank themselves won't have access to any of these systems. But I personally think that people are fools for thinking that even if BTC takes over the planet that everybody will operate their wallets themselves, especially if lighting is what is needed to scale. > There are many alternate forms of btc already, just look at bitcoin cash, bitcoin sv, bitcoin gold, bitcoin sv, the list goes on and on and on and on. I have no idea how this is related to the discussion at hand.
    - RedBeetDeadpool 5y ago
      > Slack in the motion of finances. It prevents the entire system from seizing up when there are problems. That's not my problem. Why would I, a greedy actor, ever care about the system at large? Just give me my BTC. Why would I ever take frBTC (fractionally reserved BTC) over BTC? > I have no idea how this is related to the discussion at hand. What I'm saying is the frBTC (fractionally reserved BTC) is just another altcoin, no different than puppyCoin, BitcoinSV, or buttCoin. The thing you talk of about a fractionally reserved BTC already exists, has been happening, and will continue to happen for as long as people can fork code. The trick is convincing anyone at all that they are the same thing.

UncleMeat 5y ago

The claim appears to be that BTC will fix the problems caused by fractional reserve banking. This is silly if fractional reserve banking can exist just fine even if everything is denominated in BTC.

RedBeetDeadpool 5y ago
The claim is that fractional reserve banking will not be competitive enough to trading of the real thing so no one would want it to begin with. Tell me what would a fractionally reserved loan offer me that the actual amount that I could possess would not? If I don't own the actual amount, then how do I send it to other people's wallets? And if the actual amount can never technically get into other people's wallets, why would anyone even accept them over the real thing? And if it does enter other people's wallets, mathematically how does the system fractionally reserve? And if people start accepting the loans themselves, would the loans be priced equally the same, or would it be traded at a different value? And if the loans and actual thing work in different valuations, then aren't they different currencies? So then what does one being fractionally reserved have anything to do with the original which is not? There are many alternate forms of btc already, just look at bitcoin cash, bitcoin sv, bitcoin gold, bitcoin sv, the list goes on and on and on and on. You can even claim litecoin, dogecoin, ethereum, tether, buttcoin, and all the other coins are its alternative forms, and they exist just fine. And exactly as you have said, fractional reserve btc banking will exist just fine as well, just like every last one of them. The question is: will it have anything at all to do with the original thing?
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  > Tell me what would a fractionally reserved loan offer me that the actual amount that I could possess would not? Slack in the motion of finances. It prevents the entire system from seizing up when there are problems. Yes, people who want to bank themselves won't have access to any of these systems. But I personally think that people are fools for thinking that even if BTC takes over the planet that everybody will operate their wallets themselves, especially if lighting is what is needed to scale. > There are many alternate forms of btc already, just look at bitcoin cash, bitcoin sv, bitcoin gold, bitcoin sv, the list goes on and on and on and on. I have no idea how this is related to the discussion at hand.
  - RedBeetDeadpool 5y ago
    > Slack in the motion of finances. It prevents the entire system from seizing up when there are problems. That's not my problem. Why would I, a greedy actor, ever care about the system at large? Just give me my BTC. Why would I ever take frBTC (fractionally reserved BTC) over BTC? > I have no idea how this is related to the discussion at hand. What I'm saying is the frBTC (fractionally reserved BTC) is just another altcoin, no different than puppyCoin, BitcoinSV, or buttCoin. The thing you talk of about a fractionally reserved BTC already exists, has been happening, and will continue to happen for as long as people can fork code. The trick is convincing anyone at all that they are the same thing.