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> Finally it needs to be noted that a ton of people expected a surprise attack. They just expected it against the forward US base (the Philippines) or Singapore

by csours 5y ago

> Finally it needs to be noted that a ton of people expected a surprise attack. They just expected it against the forward US base (the Philippines) or Singapore And they expected it in 1942, not 1941. And in point of fact, there was ALSO a surprise attack on the Philippines hours after Pearl Harbor. The historiography (how we handle the narrative of history and how that narrative has changed over time) around the attack on the Philippines and the subsequent defense is very confusing and interesting to me. A few thoughts - The US Navy was not ready to fight the Japanese Navy in 1941; it was only by the end of 1942 that you see the US getting a real advantage. Look at the Battle of Savo Island in August of 1942. [0] But much of the history of WWII is viewed from the highest point of each participant. The US public needed some kind of hopeful news, it needed to sound like the US was fighting back. The news out of the Philippines was not good, but it could be made to sound like a struggle to get behind. The defense of the Philippines was a disaster, but it could not be presented that way to the American public, so MacArthur was made to be a hero. This is oversimplified and I'm sure a lot of people will disagree. 0. Midway is not a fluke, but a result of excellent planning and deception operations, with a bit of luck thrown in. Even in Midway you can see that many US battle elements were not ready: ineffective torpedo bombing, ineffective dive bombing, ineffective high level horizontal bombing (which remained ineffective against competent enemy vessels for the entire war), poor navigation.

InTheArena 5y ago
>The historiography (how we handle the narrative of history and how that narrative has changed over time) around the attack on the Philippines and the subsequent defense is very confusing and interesting to me. I am with you. Blame Douglas MacArthur for that one. it's inconceivable that his planes where still lined up just waiting for the shots to be fired. I get that it's hard to figure out how to stage aviation forces so they are not on the deck at a bad moment (see Midway, Battle Of), but by any definition, it was incompetant then. On Midway, I think Shattered Sword has the correct narrative. Midway is amazing not in that it a miracle, but rather that we almost still bungled it, despite having total and complete surprise, a great battle plan, and a significant advantage in airpower.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Ineffective dive bombing at Midway? It was the only thing that was effective! And, why do you say that "the defense of the Philippines was a disaster"? It was a battle against hopeless odds, but are you saying it was bungled? If so, how? And, what was poor about the navigation at Midway?
- csours 5y ago
  SOME of the dive bombing at Midway was effective, a lot of it was not. This was the first combat mission for many US pilots and so their dives were slow and shallow. Yes, it was bungled. The odds were hopeless at a certain point - which is what makes this operation so interesting to me. When did the odds become hopeless? October 1941 or December 7th or 10th or ... 1941? For poor navigation - it's not all on the pilots, this was hard throughout the war for all sides, but specifically I mean that different groups went different places. For Midway, I highly recommend reading Shattered Sword or watching any number of the presentations the authors have given.
  - InTheArena 5y ago
    I believe the authors were also consultants on the recent Midway movie.. which is surprisingly accurate.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  For midway, you might want to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd8_vO5zrjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd8_vO5zrjo > Ineffective dive bombing at Midway? It was the only thing that was effective! Poorly executed would be a better term. They succeeded by almost pure luck. Two different squadrons managed to accidentally attack in different directions at the same time while the Japanese carriers had fully fueled and armed airplanes in their hangars waiting for an opening to launch an attack. Their hit ratio was terrible, but one bomb on a carrier was enough to destroy it given the conditions. > And, what was poor about the navigation at Midway? USS Hornet's Flight to Nowhere. The carrier completely screwed up launching their squadrons and then went in the wrong direction. Their torpedo bomber squadron mutinied and went in a different direction. The torpedo bombers found the Japanese but without any friendly fighters to protect them, all where shot down. All 10 Wildcat fighters ran out of fuel and ditched in the ocean. The other groups aborted to Midway after getting critically low on fuel and not finding any targets. At least four planes lost from the other groups. Blog post: http://pilotpropwash.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-flight-to-nowhere.html http://pilotpropwash.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-flight-to-nowh...

by csours 5y ago

InTheArena 5y ago

>The historiography (how we handle the narrative of history and how that narrative has changed over time) around the attack on the Philippines and the subsequent defense is very confusing and interesting to me. I am with you. Blame Douglas MacArthur for that one. it's inconceivable that his planes where still lined up just waiting for the shots to be fired. I get that it's hard to figure out how to stage aviation forces so they are not on the deck at a bad moment (see Midway, Battle Of), but by any definition, it was incompetant then. On Midway, I think Shattered Sword has the correct narrative. Midway is amazing not in that it a miracle, but rather that we almost still bungled it, despite having total and complete surprise, a great battle plan, and a significant advantage in airpower.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

Ineffective dive bombing at Midway? It was the only thing that was effective! And, why do you say that "the defense of the Philippines was a disaster"? It was a battle against hopeless odds, but are you saying it was bungled? If so, how? And, what was poor about the navigation at Midway?

csours 5y ago
SOME of the dive bombing at Midway was effective, a lot of it was not. This was the first combat mission for many US pilots and so their dives were slow and shallow. Yes, it was bungled. The odds were hopeless at a certain point - which is what makes this operation so interesting to me. When did the odds become hopeless? October 1941 or December 7th or 10th or ... 1941? For poor navigation - it's not all on the pilots, this was hard throughout the war for all sides, but specifically I mean that different groups went different places. For Midway, I highly recommend reading Shattered Sword or watching any number of the presentations the authors have given.
- InTheArena 5y ago
  I believe the authors were also consultants on the recent Midway movie.. which is surprisingly accurate.
kayodelycaon 5y ago
For midway, you might want to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd8_vO5zrjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd8_vO5zrjo > Ineffective dive bombing at Midway? It was the only thing that was effective! Poorly executed would be a better term. They succeeded by almost pure luck. Two different squadrons managed to accidentally attack in different directions at the same time while the Japanese carriers had fully fueled and armed airplanes in their hangars waiting for an opening to launch an attack. Their hit ratio was terrible, but one bomb on a carrier was enough to destroy it given the conditions. > And, what was poor about the navigation at Midway? USS Hornet's Flight to Nowhere. The carrier completely screwed up launching their squadrons and then went in the wrong direction. Their torpedo bomber squadron mutinied and went in a different direction. The torpedo bombers found the Japanese but without any friendly fighters to protect them, all where shot down. All 10 Wildcat fighters ran out of fuel and ditched in the ocean. The other groups aborted to Midway after getting critically low on fuel and not finding any targets. At least four planes lost from the other groups. Blog post: http://pilotpropwash.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-flight-to-nowhere.html http://pilotpropwash.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-flight-to-nowh...